Why Saruman??

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Silver_Serenity 19/Oct/2004 at 04:24 AM
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Hi!

I was just wondering - why did Sauron choose Saruman, out of all the Istari, to be his right-hand wizard? Were the others too good or too hard to track down? Maybe Sauron knew that Gandalf was too good and would never agree to work for him. Was it because Saruman actually resided in Orthanc and therefore had a vital focal point for viewing ME, or because Saruman had the palantir? I’ve been wondering about that, even though i hardly know the other members of the White Council of the Istari in Isengard, if that’s what they’re called!

Throndil 19/Oct/2004 at 04:32 AM
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well the other istari are out of the picture because they had left middle earth long ago.(with the exception of radaghast *sp*)
as for gandalf; the guy is just to darn good. Saruman seemed already corrupted by the power of the ring and feared for his own survival. The whole if you can’t beat em join em philosophy. Guess he made a little mistake there. 
Drachn’yel 19/Oct/2004 at 06:26 AM
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There were only 5 istari.....by a process of elimination Saruman is the only viable allie among them.  Pallando and Allatar (The blue wizards) had already left Middle Earth so they’re out.  Gandalf of course would never join Sauron as he’s rooting for the underdogs......Radagast is a possible ally would only have been useful as a spy - he was obsessed by lore of the forests and no real command over any of the peoples of middle earth.....he wouldn’t have been easy to break.

Saruman was the only real candidate because of his authority and position as strongest of the Istari.

Dringmistress 19/Oct/2004 at 06:33 AM
Fletcher of Lothlorien Points: 1212 Posts: 1017 Joined: 17/Mar/2003

Saruman was weakened by the one ring, he was easily corrupted. I always thought of him as a shady character. You can depict Gandalf and Saruman as good and evil. I think the movie did a good job of portraying Saruman too. Its like you can look at him and know he’s a bad guy.

Wynja 19/Oct/2004 at 07:37 AM
Horse-groom of the Mark Points: 632 Posts: 405 Joined: 18/Aug/2003
 I wouldn’t really say that Sauron chose Saruman to be his right-hand wizard... he didn’t choose him for anything for that matter. I think it would be more correct to say that Saruman chose Sauron.
19/Oct/2004 at 08:41 AM
Chieftain of Mordor Points: 8583 Posts: 9212 Joined: 11/Jun/2004
The palantír does seem to be a big influence of Curunír corruption by Gorthaur. Although he appeared to desire the One Ring for himself prior to all that, being pressed against by Gorthaur’s will kind of pushed him over the edge, in a way. Of course in the books, Curunír was never Gorthaur’s ally or servant.
Koranti 19/Oct/2004 at 08:57 AM
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Sauron chose Saruman for several reasons.  First, Saruman would have been the easiest to entice.  Gandalf was too smart, Allatar and Pallando had left, and Radagast would have been very hard to find and keep track of to communicate with.  Also, Saruman had a palantir.  Easy communication.  He also had more solid resources to work with to make an army. 
orlandolover50 19/Oct/2004 at 09:00 AM
Archer of Imladris Points: 440 Posts: 339 Joined: 12/Feb/2004
 i think that he probably chose him because he was the one with the weakits mind, and a weak mind is easier to take hold of and control. i mean, that mankes sense, so thats what i think.
Lady in Velvet 19/Oct/2004 at 09:40 AM
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Saruman was obsessed with the one ring.  And I’m pretty sure he wanted it for himself and was going to betray Sauron, or at least try to anyways.  They worked together yes but Saruman was going to stab the Dark Lord in his back.  And I’m sure he made a beautiful oath to Suaron to show that he was trustworthy.  Suaron I’m sure was probably pleased at having the higest ranked wizard on his side, so he probably never asked any questions about his loyalty.  So instead of a choosing it was probably a mutual agreement to help one another out.  And this was probably made through the palantir.  Too bad Saruman had to turn like that, wish we could have gotten to know him when treebeard and him were friends.

Ashen Shugar 19/Oct/2004 at 09:49 AM
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He wasn’t his right hand wizard - Saruman was working for himself, he wanted the ring to be his own because he wanted himself to become a Power. He was very well versed in Ring Lore, more than others, why his council regarding the One was heeded in the first place, so he knew what it was, and how powerful it was - he got seduced by the idea of being all powerful and thus we have what happened.
Hador The Great 19/Oct/2004 at 10:03 AM
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Wasn’t it Saruman that chose to join Sauron, rather than Sauron corrupting Saruman?
¿naty? 19/Oct/2004 at 12:04 PM
Garment-crafter of Lothlorien Points: 596 Posts: 55 Joined: 11/Oct/2004

correct me if i’m wrong........didn’t Saruman start looking into the plantir for his own benefits.  he wanted the ring of power for himself.  Sauron used the plantir to get into Saruman’s mind and use him as..........i think puppet was the word that was used by Gandalf (in the movie anyways).  Saruman was niether chosen to join Sauron nor did he choose to on his own.  he was just corrupted by him since he was already turning evil for his own self gain.

I may have this all wrong but thats how i remember it.

Hobbitsey 19/Oct/2004 at 12:12 PM
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I’m under the imperssion that Saruman was chosen because we was (at the time) the White Wizard, meaning the most powerful at the time.  Also he did have the palantir, meaning he was in direct contact with Sauron.  I’ll bet this connection was easiest to find some one to corrupt because he could easily hypnotize Saruman with his " MIND BOGGLING POWERS!!!!!!!!"
Landy 19/Oct/2004 at 12:28 PM
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well for one he probably knew that ~Gandalf would never be at his side as he was to obsessed with hobbits lol. Radagast i dont think was concerned with anything but nature. He actually kind of reminded me of the ents as they are quite unconcerned about the world around them. I guess radagast was just too goodhearted to corrupt and as for the other wizards, were they even in ME still?? lol
19/Oct/2004 at 12:34 PM
Chieftain of Mordor Points: 8583 Posts: 9212 Joined: 11/Jun/2004
For all intensive purposes, the Blue Wizards would still be in Middle-earth, deep into the Eastern realms. I can’t agree that Curunír was the weakest of mind, or else surely he would not have been placed as the head of the Istari. Movie-wise, perhaps Gorthaur thought that he could use Curunír and his resources to find the One Ring, but when it was discovered that the Ring was held by the heroes, the only thing Curunír now seemed good for would be to build armies and help decimate the heroes. Radagast, sadly, still trusted Curunír and never realized he had turned evil, so in that respect Gorthaur could probably use Radagast, just by using Curunír as a middle-man.
Fingolfín 19/Oct/2004 at 03:52 PM
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There was no idea of picking someone. Saruman was the first who looked into the palantir and that was one of the deciscive elements of his transfer to the bad side. The other deciscive element was the fact how Saruman was always into power. I mean into getting more power.
Melethron 19/Oct/2004 at 06:08 PM
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Sauron did not under any circumstances choose Saruman for his right-hand man. Saruman was more of a second evil than a branch of Sauron, simply because he wanted the ring himself. He naturally ended up "evil" because of his interests and desire for power. One of the Valar (I don’t remember which one) sensed this before the Istari were sent to Middle Earth, because he or she suggested that Gandalf be sent too.
Gumby_Cat 17/Dec/2004 at 07:46 PM
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Here is teh quote from the book that tells us that Saruman was not chosen by Saruman at all but he was trapped by him.
"So there the palantir of that towerhas remained. But aalone it could do nothing but see small inmages of things far off and days remote. Very useful no doubt, that was to Saruman; yet it seems that he was not content. Further abroad he gazed, until he cast his gaze upon Bara-dur. Then he was caught"
In other words Sauron would then force him to do his will using the palantir.
Eru_anno 17/Dec/2004 at 08:14 PM
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sauron did not choose saruman because he had heardo f his  might but by chance,kinda, if any other of the istari or one of the white council had taken the keys of isenguard, they two may have been carupted and trapped by the palantiri and sarons might. so he didnt reall y chosee saruman.
Lèŋatĥ 29/Dec/2004 at 09:49 AM
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I also believe that Sauron did not look nor chose his right-hand wizard. It was all by a chance that Saruman used the palantiri so often and Sauron caught him and then surrendered him to his will (in the movie version that is.) We all know that in the books Saruman did not cooperate with Sauron and wanted the ring for himself. I think that Sauron would have never even considered to start looking for an ally among the Isatri if Saruman had not been using the palatiri.
Lùthien Oronra 29/Dec/2004 at 11:45 AM
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Saruman was the Head of the White Council, and so I presume he would have been an obvious choice of Sauron’s.  He held a lot of sway in Middle-Earth because of the position which he held, so he would have been a very powerful ally - or enemy.  However, I think that Lenat has a point - maybe Saruman simply used the palantir too much and fell under Sauron’s evil clutches....
Celinawyn 29/Dec/2004 at 11:53 AM
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Saruman did not act on Sauron’s behalf. He acted entirely for himself and wanted to have to ring for himself. He would not have shared power with Sauron and neither would Sauron. Saruman is the wisest of all Istari and was the most powerful, before Gandalf was resent to ME as Gandalf the White. He was Head of the White Council and learned in lore, especially in the lore of the rings. But he left the path of good and turned from good advice.
Drachn’yel 30/Dec/2004 at 06:05 AM
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I think Sauron must have chosen Saruman to be his allie - I don’t find it realistic that Saruman would have offerered himself to Sauron as Sauron wouldn’t believe the words of the leader of the White Council.  Sauron corrupted Saruman through the Palantir and weakened him enough so that he couldn’t refuse.
Silver_Serenity 02/Feb/2005 at 12:07 AM
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So, I’ve got now that Sauron chose Saruman for his own ends. That’s cool.

So, what would have happened once Saruman’s armies were destroyed in TTT (wrong forum, I know...)? I suppose Sauron was counting in Saruman’s Army to weaken any defences that stood in his way. Since Saruman failed in his mission (which, I presume, was extremely important for both of them), would Sauron still value Saruman’s power and influence? Would he still call upon him to help him cripple any mobilization, miltary or other? Could Saruman still hold Sauron’s favor after suffering a defeat at Helm’s Deep?

Sorry about throwing so many questions at you! I really don’t want to start a new thread (unless Admin do it first). I suppose, since Saruman isn’t  very prominent towards the end of TTT and throughout ROTK, it would point to a *possible* conclusion.

Does anyone have any views on this? Thanks for letting me throw my thoughts at you!

Drachn’yel 02/Feb/2005 at 02:47 AM
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In answer to your many questions, if Saruon were still around in the aftermath then he probably would have the One Ring, in which case I don’t think he’d accept the failure of Saruman, but if somehow he were still searching for it then he’d keep Saruman on his list of allies until the time came that he could have complete control of all Middle Earth
Dùnadan 04/Feb/2005 at 01:04 AM
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I think that it because sauron knew that Gandalf would not be part of it, but I have always thought that Saruman choosed sauron, that he wanted to be alied with sauron. I that wrong? Maybe I am mistaking. But it was saruman that asked sauron for orces to build him a one army, and used saruons orces to build Uruk Hai, so he could find the ring for him self.

Byg Sci 05/Feb/2005 at 07:29 AM
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Sauron was the head of Gandalf’s order. He was the most powerful, the most easily corrupted. He already had a base of operations within Rohan and he was the only one with a Palantir. Made sense I guess.

Marclem 05/Feb/2005 at 09:01 AM
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Sauron had studied Sauron and the ring for a long time and by using the plantir to find his information about Sauron. Because of this Sauron used Saruman and turned him against Middle Earth. It was Saruman not Sauron that was the head of the Istari, Byg Sci

’The age of men is over the time of the orc has come.’