Sindarin Studies (Elvish)

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Stiffler Vaneyar 09/Jan/2006 at 06:22 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Welcome! To Stiffler’s Sindarin Study Group!

 If you would like to join this fine group of people on their journey into the heart of Tolkien’s love, please, take a seat and watch this language unfold. This study group was created so that everyone can learn their favorite language, Sindarin, at their own pace and skill level. Because not many of us are fluent in SIndarin, we will start off at the begining, and work our way through this ever wonderful language of the elves.

This study group is open to all levels of Sindarin learners, beginner or advanced, but keep in mind only the basics of Sindarin will be touched. If you are planning to join just state in the post that you want to sign-up and jump in. The course that we will be doing and which will be our main reference is Pedin Edhellen, by Thorsten. If you are interested in knowing more about Sindarin then you can read the article by Helge Fauskanger here. The group will spend a certain amount of time over a chapter and then progress on to the next as soon as all questions have been cleared from the chapter at hand. Pronunciation of letters and words can be found here or in Appendix E of the Lord of The Rings. Tengwar is a script in which Elvish is written and therefore can only learnt in due time by practice and experience. It will not be discussed here. Dragon Flame is an excellent and most recommended dictionary for Sindarin words.

 

As we progress we will improve on our Sindarin and therefore a few translations or trivia questions will be asked by anyone in the group, whiten the answers so others will try it themselves without having a peak at the answers, this will help us to use our skills and learn from our mistakes. Apart from those trivia questions on Sindarin, any problems or difficulties faced by anyone in the group can be asked here.

 

Guidelines

1.       All plaza rules apply.

2.       Requests for translations are to be made at the Translation desk and not here.

3.       Since we are all still learning the language mistakes will happen and those making them are not be held responsible.

4.       Questions regarding the language are to made at the Language Help Desk and not here. This thread is only for those who wish to learn Sindarin in a group.

5.       Comments regarding something other than the study should be posted here.

6.       Anyone experiencing any difficulties in opening the course can contact anyone one of us by e-mail (address found in profile). If you have problems reaching one of the members, try another! 

Previous Threads:
Thread 1

Stiffler Vaneyar 09/Jan/2006 at 06:24 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

I think it is time to begin the next thread and I have decided to change things a little bit with the permission of some more advanced members. I have noticed that a few people do not have access to the Pedin Edhellen and some others do not understand it the way it should be. SO, I have taken it upon myself to summarize the lessons and post them in this thread.

Now, at this moment there are some members of this group are in lesson three. But this is okay. At any moment during the life of this group, members can be in any lesson. The more experienced members will help the less experienced members as well as continue to learn the Sindarin Language.

Well, here is my summary;

Theoden- I hope that it is okay the way that I posted this. If you want any changes, they can be easily made!

 

Personal Pronouns and Genitive

Vocab-

Sindarin - English

Adan - (pl. edain) human

Aran - (pl. erain) king

Aras - (pl. erais) deer

Cabed - leap

cuio vae! - farewell!

Edhel - (pl. edhil) elf

Elleth - (pl. ellith) elf-maiden

Ennorath - Middle Earth (lit. Inner Lands)

h^ır - (pl. h^ır) lord

Imladris - Rivendell

Ion - (pl. ion) son, son

*law - no (denying fact, not intention)

mae - well, *yes

mae govannen -well met

methed - end

peredhel - half-elf

rath - (pl. raith) way, path

sell - (pl. sill) daughter

 

Genitive-

                A genitive shows possession or source of a pronoun. For Example, the following genitives are underlined.

 

Leap of the deer

King of Gondor

He is of Rohan

Sound of a horn

                When said in Sindarin, the article ‘en’ takes the place of the genitive. For Example;

‘Leap of the Deer’ is translated to ‘Cabad en aras’

 

                For simplicities sake, just use ‘en’ when giving translations until you are more advanced. This will save you any confusion. But, you should know that there are these changes;

                It is normal for ‘en’ to be used when the noun is not a proper noun, such as a name or place. It is unusual to leave out ‘en’ when there is no proper noun, as it is also unusual to have ‘en’ when there is a proper noun. But, ‘en’ can be left out at any time.

                For plural forms, ‘en’ is changed to ‘in’. ‘En’ can also be shortened to ‘e’ or ‘I’ or can be changed to ‘na’ or ‘nia’ when the genitive is ancient.

 

Personal Pronouns

 

These are the translations of the personal pronouns in Singular and plural forms.

Im - (I)                                                    m´ın - (we)

*le - (thou)                                             *le - (thou)

*ce - (you)                                               *ce - (you)

 (male) e,                                               *so (he)                                   *sy (they)

 (female) *e,                                           *se (she)                                *si (they)

(Neutral/things)                                    *sa (it)                                      *sai (they)

 

There is no word for ‘to be’ in Sindarin. Instead, it is understood by the context which it would apprear. For Example;

‘Im Arwen’ is directly translated to ‘I Arwen’, but it is understood to be ‘I am Arwen’

 

The Indefinite Article ‘a’ and ‘an’ in English are not used in Sindarin. They are understood be context.

 

The Definite article ‘the’ is translated to ‘I’ (singular) and ‘in’ (plural) For example;

The sons- In ion

 

Practice

Here are some translations that you can practice on for this lesson. They are not found in the Pedin Edhellen because I made them up myself. But you can try them anyway and I am sure one of us will tell you if you are correct or not.

 

Leap of the half-elf

Deer (plural) of the Kings

An Elf

The son of the King

You are King

They (male) are of Middle-Earth

 

Laebeth- Could you possibly leave the summaries to me if I did a good job on this one? It gives me something to do and makes me feel important, though you are the brains of this group!
Thorsten 09/Jan/2006 at 07:35 AM
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Pronouns should be posted along with the * to indicate that they are unattested. Failure to do so has lead to horrendous confusion in the past, and I ask that if Pedin Edhellen is referenced, that this is done properly.
Laebeth 09/Jan/2006 at 07:55 AM
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*grins* I wasn’t thinking about writing up any summaries, so if you want to do so, that is great Stiffler! As long as you make sure to do it in a way that is fine by Thorsten and gives proper credits to his course, everything should be fine.
Stiffler Vaneyar 09/Jan/2006 at 07:57 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Thorsten- Thank you! I will go and ask some admin to correct that. I will do so in the future. So, I am guessing that I summarised it okay?

Laebeth- I will do just that in the future, so as to not make Thorsten angry with me and hurt me.

Thaidwen 09/Jan/2006 at 05:39 PM
Pilgrim of Isengard Points: 1342 Posts: 1210 Joined: 12/Aug/2005

Foofoo, haha bery funny!  k no wto the translations . . . . . .  

Leap of the half-elf  ( Cabad en peredhel )

Deer (plural) of the  ( Kings  erais en aran )

An Elf   ( edhel )

The son of the King   ( i ion en erain )

You are King ( ce aran )

They (male) are of Middle-Earth  ( sy o Ennorath )

Laebeth 11/Jan/2006 at 09:11 AM
Counsellor of Elrond Points: 19794 Posts: 17474 Joined: 22/Feb/2002

Stiffler ~ I don’t think he was angry, he just pointed out your mistake so others would not make any  

Thaidwen ~ en- causes mixed mutation, so it’d be Cabed e-beredhel methinks!

Kaldaka Lirinde 22/Jan/2006 at 09:25 AM
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Leap of the half-elf- *Cabed en beredhil*

Deer (plural) of the Kings- *Erais en erain*

An Elf- *edhel*

The son of the King- *I ion en aran*

You are King- *Ce aran*

They (male) are of Middle-Earth- *Sy en Middle-Earth*

iluftar 23/Jan/2006 at 01:32 AM
Novice of Isengard Points: 37 Posts: 39 Joined: 22/Jan/2006

Leap of the half-elf *cabed en aras*

Deer (plural) of the Kings *erais en arain*

An Elf *edhel*

The son of the King *i ion en aran*

You are King *ce aran*

They (male) are of Middle-Earth *sy en ennorath*

Kaldaka Lirinde 23/Jan/2006 at 03:46 AM
New Soul Points: 3822 Posts: 3956 Joined: 12/Apr/2005
Very sorry about the Middle-Earth thing, I just saw it’s translation today. Here’s the last one again.

They (male) are of Middle-Earth- *Sy en Ennorath*

Stiffler Vaneyar 23/Jan/2006 at 06:36 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

I am very glad that we finally have more people joining us in the studies. Anyway, here are some corrections:
Iluftar- The first phrase should be ’Cabed e-beredhel’ as Laebeth stated above. The second phrase should end in ’erain’ . Also, King (singular) is aran and kings (plural) is erain. You made that mistake a couple of times when you switched them. Otherwise, excellent job!
Kaldaka- I am glad that you made that correction! good Job! There are some other mistakes, however. . . The first phrase should be the same as Laebeth’s correction.

I will be doing the next lesson sometime soon, so be ready!

Kaldaka Lirinde 25/Jan/2006 at 12:01 PM
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Cool! These are a few sentences I made up and translated, and I would like to know if I got them correct or not. If anybody else wishes to try their hand at them, that’s fine with me.
The mountains are to the east- *In aeglir nan Amrun*
The orcs are to die- *In yrch gwanno*
I know there’s mutation too, but I have to look that up and switch it around then.
Stiffler Vaneyar 31/Jan/2006 at 06:32 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Kaldaka- I would gladly try my hand at your translations, however, I understand why noone has come to try before. You have gone farther ahead in the lessons. I am sorry, but please keep your translations nearby so that we can try them later on, perhaps someone may still want to try your translations, though I cannt. I apologise. If you would still like to make your own translations, use words and phrases from the vocabulary list in this page or the pedin Edhellen*

Now, it would greatly please me if everyone would try to translate this from Sindarin into English.

Mae govannen!

Aragorn: Mae govannen!

Arwen: Mae govannen! Im Arwen.

Aragorn: Im Aragorn. Im adan. Ce elleth?

Arwen: Mae. Im elleth. Im sell Elrond.

Aragorn: E h^ır Imladris?

Arwen: Mae. E peredhel. Ce Rohir?

Aragorn: Law. Im D´unadan.

Arwen: Cuio vae, Aragorn!

Aragorn: Cuio vae, Arwen!

 

Aelindis 31/Jan/2006 at 08:04 AM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004

Kaldaka: The orcs are to die - *In yrch gwanno* : I believe that this idiomatic expression of an obligation / command ("they are to ...") cannot be translated literally into Sindarin. I would rather suggest: No in yrch gwannol! (Cf. Pedhin Edhellen, p.107)?

Thorsten 01/Feb/2006 at 01:00 AM
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I am not so sure about my own suggestion here - Lothenon would argue that in yrch gwanno! is closer to tolo i arnad, and he actually has a point there. So I would think that it is possible ;-)
Aelindis 01/Feb/2006 at 05:40 AM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004
Yes, I should have considered that! (I was under the impression that Kaldaka had tried to translate it literally, with infinitive and omitting the verb ’to be’.) But wouldn’t maybe the imperative appeare in front position? 
Thorsten 01/Feb/2006 at 05:42 AM
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Probably - though I don’t know for sure of course...
Finwë Elensar 03/Feb/2006 at 01:51 PM
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Have any of you ever used the Greyhaven Elvish Guide, it’s about 14 pages long, but it has a whole lot of stuff. I dno’t know if it’s entirely Tolkien related thoug, but it has some good guidelines on the site. Just type in "Grayhaven" on google and you should find it.
Stiffler Vaneyar 03/Feb/2006 at 03:51 PM
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Okay, thank you, Finwe! I will check it out, and we may put it here. But, if it does not meet Thorsten’s aproval, I believe it may not be appropriate. Thanks, anyway!
Laebeth 05/Feb/2006 at 08:36 AM
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Stiffler ~ isn’t the translation to that already written in the course

Finwë ~ I cannot find any online site about Greyhaven, but if you mean the Greyelvish/grelvish language they have on one online site...let’s just say it is best to stay far, far away from it if you want to learn Sindarin based upon well-founded theories.

Thorsten 06/Feb/2006 at 03:16 AM
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> Just type in "Grayhaven" on google and you should find it.

So why don’t you do it and post the link here if it is so easy? All I get is ’Greyhaven Bird Sanctuary’, though I doubt the nice little filig chirp in Elvish ;-)
Stiffler Vaneyar 06/Feb/2006 at 04:26 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005
Laebeth- Yes, it is. But, I thought that if some of the members that could not get into the course would like to give it a try, then they could. Also, I know that the translation is in the course, but I would not use it if it was me that was going to translate it. It would spoil the fun!
Magradhaid 06/Feb/2006 at 02:03 PM
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The link would be the Grey Havens, but it’s only a direct reproduction (with permission) of some articles off Ardalambion.
Finwë Elensar 06/Feb/2006 at 07:24 PM
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Im sorry I messed up with the sight, it is www.grey-company.org, not grey haven. Just go to the elven places, and then on the far right book. Then you will get a 55 page packet of elvish, 3 on elvish grammar, and a meety 50 with elvish translations, common phrases, and an elven translator. I apologize for my mistake.

Thorsten your right, I should have posted the link, I am sorry.
Aelindis 06/Feb/2006 at 09:54 PM
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If you want to learn Sindarin, the Grey Company won’t be of any help to you, since they are teaching their own made-up language ’Grelvish’ which is not a language created by Tolkien. The inventors were not very creative though, for the most part they just mixed up elements of Sindarin and Quenya.
Stiffler Vaneyar 07/Feb/2006 at 06:11 AM
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Thorsten- Before I post the next lesson, I have a question for you.

In the section "Pronomial Endings for A-Verbs", there is an instruction I am confused about. You say this:

Things are similar in plural: Here the 3rd person pl. is identical with the personless form 1;
Edhil linnar
M’in linnar

I am confused about what you are saying, so could you explain to me what you are saying?

 

Laebeth 09/Feb/2006 at 07:42 AM
Counsellor of Elrond Points: 19794 Posts: 17474 Joined: 22/Feb/2002

Stiffler ~ I am not Thorsten, but...

Normally the verbs are conjugated according to the persons:
Linnon (I sing)
Linnach (you sing)
Linna (she/he/it sings)
Linnam (we sing)
Linnach (you sing)
Linnar (they sing)


But sometimes, if you want to emphasize that it is for example WE who sing, and not anyone else. That is when you use the pronoun + the personless form.

The personless form can be either singular, or plural. They are identitcal with the third person forms in singular in plural, so in this case, the personless forms are:

Linna and linnar

If you want to emphasize that it is I who sing, you say:
Im linna instead of linnon.

If you want to emphasize that it is we  who sing, you say:
Me linnar instead of linnam.

Does that make more sense?

Thorsten ~ does mín mean we  I thought it meant our?

Stiffler Vaneyar 09/Feb/2006 at 09:26 AM
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Ah! I understand now! Thanks! Monday, I should have all of the next lesson posted!
Stiffler Vaneyar 13/Feb/2006 at 06:53 AM
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Lesson 2

Conjugation of A-Verbs

 

                Okay, this is the beginning of the second lesson! Now, just as a note, if anyone wants to continue with the previous lesson, they may certainly do so!

 

Vocabulary-

A(h) – and

Adab- house, building (plural- edaib)

Aeglir – range of peaks (plural- aeglir)

Aduial – evening

Amr^un – East

Anglenna – approach

Anna- – to give

Anon – gate

Anor – sun

Dortha- – to stay, dwell

Edrain – border (plural – edrain)

Ennas – there

Falch – ravine (plural – failch)

Lacha- – to flame

Lasta- - to hear

Man? – who? What?

Man sad? – what place? Where?

Mellon – friend (plural – mellyn)

Mi – in

Min – in the

Minna- - to enter

Na – to, towards, at

Nan – to the, at the

Revia- - to wander

Thinna- - to grow towards evening

Ertha- - to unite

 

1. Basic Facts –

                There are two classes of verbs in the Sindarin Language;

A-verbs, which is a much larger group and ends in –a

                                (-na, -ia, -da, -tha, and –ta)

I-verbs; which are described as ‘basic’, ‘primitive’ and’strong’ These will be discussed in Lesson 5

 

2. Conjugating A-Verbs

                Depending on what person is being used, each a-verb will end differently. Here is a list of pronouns and the endings of the verbs that correspond with each;

 

+ I -n

 We –m

++ Thou -*l   plural -*l

You -*ch        plural -*ch

+++ he/she/it - 

++++ they -*r

 

                                + The final ‘a’ in the verb is changed to ‘o’

                                ++ This form is unattested, and will not be used in the examples

                                +++ There is no ending for the verbs with this pronoun

++++ The ending for the 3rd person Plural is the same for males, females and gender neutral groups.

 

Exampls –

                Lacha- (to flame)

                Lachon (I flame)

                Lachach (you flame)

                Lacha (he/she/it flames)

                Lacham (We flame)

                Lachar (they flame)

 

                Sometimes, when the subject of the sentence is directly stated, the verb cannot be conjugated.

                Im Linna (I Sing)   Linnon (I Sing)
                Arwen Linna (Arwen Sings)

                Never say Im Linnon (I I Sing) This is very bad grammar.

               

                In the form ‘they’, the ending ’-r’ must always be used. So, you would never say Edhil linna, you would say Edhil linnar.

 

3. Infinitives and Imperatives

                Simply change the ‘-a’ with an ‘-o’.

                Infinitive – laston Arwen linno (I hear Arwen Sing)

                Imperative- Minno Aragorn! (Aragorn shall enter!)

 

5. Gerund

                The gerund in English is the ending –ing which states present tense of verbs. The gerund in Sindarin is the ending –d.

                You use the gerund when stating what a person is doing at a specific time, you do not use it to describe a subject.

                                Good: dorthad (dwelling) bad: dorthad edhel (The dwelling elf)

                Gerunds may also be used to form infinitives in certain situations

                                Laston linnad (I hear singing)

                                Laston Arwen linnad (I hear Arwen sing(ing))

 

6. And

                When the next word in the sequence begins with a vowel, you use ‘ah’ to show and. If it begins with a consonant, you use ‘a’ to show and.

                                Legolas a Aragorn

                                Aragorn ah Legolas

 

               

Any questions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

           

 

 

 

 

Aelindis 17/Feb/2006 at 01:04 AM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004

> Now, just as a note, if anyone wants to continue with the previous lesson, they my certainly do so!

If you maintain your speed, you will complete lesson 22 by May 2013.

Stiffler Vaneyar 17/Feb/2006 at 04:22 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Hey, thanks! I guess I have plenty of time to let everyone gt a little chance at this, then huh?

I will get it done. I try to wait for some others to say something about the lesson, and then I go onto the next. My next post will not be for a week, as I am going on vac. Until then, this lesson will have to do. Of course, if you would like to help me, I would be grateful!

Aelindis 17/Feb/2006 at 05:06 AM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004
Sorry, my calculation was flawed, so hear good news: If you keep up your speed, you will complete the course already by February 2013.
Laebeth 17/Feb/2006 at 06:13 AM
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*dies*

Sorry for being quite unable to help myself...

Stiffler Vaneyar 17/Feb/2006 at 06:26 AM
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Hey! That’s a little better! There is still hope!

Laebeth- That’s fine. I hope that you will have some time to make some practice questions for everyone to do. If you want to, of course.
I HAVE MISSED YOU!!!

Lord Crimson 24/Feb/2006 at 07:16 AM
Scout of Lothlorien Points: 68 Posts: 45 Joined: 06/Feb/2005
Umm, there was a translator dragon breath or something about a year ago. Can anyone tell me how to get to the link?
cjhack2 24/Feb/2006 at 07:58 AM
Scout of Lothlorien Points: 70 Posts: 11 Joined: 23/Feb/2006
Can u guys make this really really easy for me and e-mail the languge for me because theres a lot of reading on this furom and i kinda want the easy way if any1 could do that for me, i would reallly appreciate it thanks all
Aelindis 24/Feb/2006 at 10:57 AM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004
cjhack2:  No, unfortunately we cannot make this "really really easy" for you because learning Sindarin would necessitate  _extensive_  reading. Since reading seems to be troublesome to you, your intention to learn this language isn’t really promising. :-)
cjhack2 25/Feb/2006 at 01:54 PM
Scout of Lothlorien Points: 70 Posts: 11 Joined: 23/Feb/2006
i never said anyhting about learning it all i said is that i didnt read the whole entire forum because theres about 30 posts that are 5 paragraphs long.
Aelindis 26/Feb/2006 at 01:02 AM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004

> i never said anyhting about learning it

Well, as you posted your question in a thread named "Sindarin Studies" I had assumed that it would deal with learning Sindarin.
Unfortunately I have no idea what you are expecting when you are asking to "e-mail the language for you" .
Maybe you want to read the Language FAQ ?

 

Laebeth 27/Feb/2006 at 02:38 AM
Counsellor of Elrond Points: 19794 Posts: 17474 Joined: 22/Feb/2002
Stiffler ~ I’d be happy to provide some tasks, but this thread appears to be quite dead at the moment so I’m not sure if it would be so useful...=/
Stiffler Vaneyar 27/Feb/2006 at 06:14 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Laebeth - Are you proposing that we end this activity? I was hoping that we did not need to and that others would eventually make their way here.

I do think that if we had some little games then others would have an incentive to come. What do you think? I would rather not put an end to this, even if noone else is learning, I sure am, and I am sure that others may look in on this once in a while.

Lord Cremson - I cannot help you, unfortunately. But maybe someone else can!

Laebeth 27/Feb/2006 at 08:19 AM
Counsellor of Elrond Points: 19794 Posts: 17474 Joined: 22/Feb/2002

No, I’m not proposing we end it. But I do believe that
a) more people need to learn about the thread/some announcing must be done
b) there should be plan for how to move things forward
c) that there is no use posting assignments unless there are more people participating.

I realize that making questions and all might actually draw in one or more persons, but well...I guess what I’m trying to say is that if/when people show up, I’ll see if I can get something done.

Thaidwen 27/Feb/2006 at 07:24 PM
Pilgrim of Isengard Points: 1342 Posts: 1210 Joined: 12/Aug/2005
*facepalmx10* im sooo sorry, been very busy . . .i do believe im caught up *reads a while and takes notes* but but but, please dont close the thread i cnnot do this alone . . . .
Stiffler Vaneyar 28/Feb/2006 at 06:30 AM
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Thaidwen- I will definitely not be closing this activity. As long as one other person is coming here, I will leave it open!

Laebeth- So, what do you propose that we do for advertising? I do not know of anything that we can do that will be ’legal’.  Can I just go to all of the Language threads that people are opening and tell them to come here? Maybe stop by the Newbie thread and post some stuff?

Perhaps we should wait until we get more members to come in here and then we will figure out how we will do the lessons. And I will wait for a while before I post the next one.

Laebeth 05/Mar/2006 at 11:06 AM
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Hey, Thaidwen, it is great to see you again!

Stiffler ~ I suggest that you mail the rulers and ask them to advertise in their kingdoms, or ask for permission to do it yourself. And when people ask where to learn the languages in this forum, direct them to this thread.

Lothenon 05/Mar/2006 at 11:13 AM
Minstrel of Lothlorien Points: 2306 Posts: 2163 Joined: 10/Aug/2007
A note on personal pronouns:

It appears that im for 1.sg.nominative is obsolete. It once was the correct form, but later Tolkien seems to have changed his mind and reinterpreted the Im Narvi hain echant and ú-chebin estel anim lines to "Narvi [him]self made them" resp. "I have not kept for [my]self", so im is now a reflexive pronoun and we should maybe rather use *ni.
Regarding English pronouns: In older English thou was singular while ye (later you) was the plural. The plural then was used as a very formal singular but then became normal and finally replaced thou (at about Shakespeare’s time), leaving only one form for both singular and plural. So there is no such thing as plural thou.

>Lothenon would argue that in yrch gwanno! is closer to tolo i arnad, and he actually has a point there. So I would think that it is possible ;-)

Yea, he findeth the idea quite interesting but still certainly would
Thorsten 05/Mar/2006 at 11:49 PM
Banned Points: 2659 Posts: 2540 Joined: 05/Nov/2003
> It appears that im for 1.sg.nominative is obsolete.

It beats be why this would appear from a bunch of late remarks on the pronominal system. The latest VT’s show layers of material directly contradicing what Tolkien wrote earlier, clearly they contain a lot of drafts, ideas that never materialized beyond the point when they were written to be abandoned immediately.

So, yes, Tolkien did toy with the idea of re-interpreting the early material. But by the time he wrote LOTR, im did mean ’I’. Why it should follow that the late note conclusively obsoletes that I cannot understand. I am happy to continue to use im as ’I’ as apparent from sources contemporary with LOTR in my own compositions - I don’t mind anyone using it as a reflexive pronoun, but I would like to stress that neither choice is ’wrong’.
Stiffler Vaneyar 06/Mar/2006 at 06:25 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Laebeth- Congrats on the SCR, and thanks fo the idea. I will go and try that within the next few days.

Thorsten- Thanks for clearing that issue up. I was a little confused.

Stiffler Vaneyar 23/Mar/2006 at 11:34 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005
Everyone- I apologise for not working too much on this activity. I promise, as soon as my home internet works, I will be working on this and helping you all learn how to read and speak SIndarin! I would appreciate any and all help from any members that think this activity is worth while. Thanks!
Stiffler Vaneyar 30/Mar/2006 at 09:55 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005
Okay, everyone , listen up! We need to get this ball rolling, and now that I have more time, I can do more with this. But, I am still not going to be able to do everything on my own. So, I am closing the discussions for right now, and instead I will be asking all of you for suggestions with what we should do to get more people to come in here, besides the ones we already have. I also need at least one other person to help me run this by supplying the lessons, encouraging others to come here and advertising the thread. Please, people. I can’t do this alone!!
Aelindis 01/Apr/2006 at 09:12 AM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004

Stiffler: As you may have gathered from my previous posts I am interested in this thread. Actually, I appreciate the idea of a Sindarin study group.
Regarding suggestions about advertising this thresd, it seems to me that Laebeth has already suggested many obvious ways to accomplish hat.
Regarding my personal help, I am rather hesitant as i have noticed that you don’t seem to be overly interested in this activity. While you had no time to spend on this study group you had evidently a plenty of time to write numberless posts in other threads.
 

 

Stiffler Vaneyar 01/Apr/2006 at 05:30 PM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Aelindis- Thank you for your input. I am actually glad that someone took notice in this thread. Actually, just so that you know, I have been studying the Pedhin Edhellen on my own and getting ready for the next lessons. Let me explain to you what is happening.

I recently moved on account of some very huge family issues. Now, I have more time to spend in a row. Basically, before I used to get 5 minutes here, and ten minutes there. So, I could easily make a short post in another forum. I understand that I have failed, however, in my duties as a Sindarin Studies leader, and will make it up to you shortly.

There are no excuses for what I have done, and I apologise. There will be major changes now in this group, one of them being my attendance. I would still appreciate some sort of help from someone else on the Plaza. It seems that Laebeth is not on often enough to be of great help (though she is) and I am still busy with RL. I have also been debating wether or not I should follow Laebeth’s advice and go to every kingdom and post something about this activity. If you have not noticed, I have already done this 6 other times and I do not want to get into trouble. I still do not have email access, so the only way that I can get the message out to everyone is to spam.

That is why i continue to ask for suggestions. If you can help, or will do this for me, I can easily type up a message and give it to you or someone else to email to all Rulers and ask them to speak more of this activity.

I am deeply sorry for any inconvenience that i have caused for anyone, and will take any punishment that is necessary.

Thorsten 02/Apr/2006 at 08:25 AM
Banned Points: 2659 Posts: 2540 Joined: 05/Nov/2003
Study groups and courses never run just because they are offered, that’s just a fact of life. Study groups run because someone wants to study, and the most successful group I have seen so far has been organized by folks who asked for a challenge (a longer Sindarin text) and a bit of help doing it. So unless you find some people who really want to learn and do a lot of work, this group will probably not move much. Advertizing is nice, it gets you a lot of people who are curious and are in for a few days but will disappear once they realize that learning a language isn’t primarily a fun activity and cannot be made into one, it’s just hard work which needs to be dine and the fun comes later.

Sorry to sound so negative - my point is that it is not primarily your fault if this activity isn’t taking off - it is just how it usually goes. If for some reason ever a number of people assembles here who is willing to invest a lot of work and wants to learn, then help won’t be too far if questions are asked. :-)
Aelindis 02/Apr/2006 at 10:12 PM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004
Stiffler~  My last post was too harsh, I am sorry! Thorsten is perfectly right.
Stiffler Vaneyar 03/Apr/2006 at 06:53 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Aelindis- No, it is not your fault. I have a tendency to take things too seriously and actr in an overly-defensive manner. But, if it would make you feel better, I forgive you (for nothing).  You did exactly what I would have done and I am sure what others would have done also.

Thorsten- Thank you for saying that. I would love to continue running this activity, but it seems like what you have said is correct. Already, manay members have come here and then ended up leaving without a trace. I will wait for Laebeth to say something on the matter, and then perhaps I will have this thread deleted.

I am sad, but, alas, it must be done.
Of course, I appreciate all of the work you have done in creating the Pedin Edhellen, and will continue to work on it by myself.

Aelindis 03/Apr/2006 at 07:47 AM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004
stiffler2 ~ I would like to encourage you to study ’Pedin Edhellen’ by yourself. If you have questions, you can certainly start new threads in the languages forum. But to tell the truth, IMO there are some other places, beyond the plaza, where the number of participants in discussions on Sindarin might be larger. 
Stiffler Vaneyar 03/Apr/2006 at 08:28 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005
Aelindis- Okay, sounds good. Thank you for all of your help!
Frodo544 03/Apr/2006 at 09:09 AM
Elfling of Lothlorien Points: 37 Posts: 44 Joined: 02/Apr/2006
Ok I have quite alot
First is the spelling 2nd is the pronuncion 3rd is the english translation.
Greetings

Mae govannen
My go-VAH-nen
Well met

Suilaid
Soo-ih-lied
Greetings

Elen síla lumenn’ omentielvo
Q, ELL-ehn SEE-lah LOO-men oh-men-tee-el-voh [the tee-el is slurred together]
A star shines on the hour of our meeting

Gîl síla na lû govaded
Gil SEE-la nah loo go-VAH-dead
A star shines on the time of our meeting

Im gelir ceni ad lín
Eem geh-leer keh-nee ahd leen
I am happy to see you again

Le suilon
Lay swee-lonn
I greet thee

Mára aurë
Q, Mah-rah ow-ray
Hello



Questions

Pedich Edhellen?
PEH-deekh eth-ell-ehn?
Do you speak Elvish?

Iston le?
EE-stohn lay?
Do I know you?

Heniach nin?
Hen-ee-akh neen?
Do you understand me?

Man eneth lín?
Mahn eh-nehth leen?
What is your name?

O man dôr túliel le?
Oh mahn dore tool-ee-ell lay?
From what land do you come?

Man carel le?
Mahn kah-rell lay?
What are you doing?

Man anírach cerin an le?
Mahn ah-NEAR-ahkh care-een ahn lay?
What can I do for you?

Le no an-uir nîn?
Lay no ahn-oo-ear neen?
Will you be mine forever?

Aníral toled na gar nîn?
Ah-NEAR-ahl tole-ehd nah gahr neen?
Do you want to come to my house?

Aníral maded?
Ah-NEAR-ahl mah-dead?
Do you want to eat?

Aníral sogad?
Ah-NEAR-ahl soe-gahd
Do you want to drink?

Sen tîr?
Sehn teer?
Is this true?

Man tolthant i ’waew?
Mahn tole-thahnt ee wye?
How is the weather?

Man sad Imladris?
Mahn sahd Eem-lahd-rees?
Where is Rivendell?

Man râd na Imladris?
Mahn rahd nah Eem-lahd-rees?
Which way to Rivendell?

Man ceril?
Mahn kare-eel?
What do you do?

Man lû nostor lîn?
Mahn loo nohs-tore leen?
When is your birthday? (lit. "What time is your birthday?")

Le gwennen?
Lay gwehn-nehn?
Are you married?

Man sâd telil?
Mahn sahd tehl-eel?
Where are you from?

Man lû vin achenitham?
Mahn loo veen ah-khehn-ee-thahm?
When will we see each other again?

Man mathach?
Mahn mah-thakh?
How do you feel?

Manen orchal le?
Mah-nehn ore-khahl lay?
How tall are you?

Manen nalyë?
Q, Mah-nehn nahl-yay?
How are you?



Commands

Tiro!
TEAR-oh!
Look!

Bado na Ennorath!
BAH-doh nah enn-ore-ahth
Go to Middle-earth!

Gwanno ereb nin!
GWAH-no air-ehb neen!
Leave me alone!

Daro i!
DAR-oh ee!
Stop that!

Sedho!
SEH-tho!
Quiet!

Edro!
ED-ro!
Open!

Lasto!
LAHS-toe!
Listen!

Ava vanta i salquessë
Q, Ah-vah vahn-tah ee sahl-QUEHS-say
Keep off the grass

Anno nin ---
Ahn-no neen ---
Give me ---

No diriel!
No dear-ee-ell!
Be watchful!

No veren!
No vare-ehn!
Be bold!

Drego!
Dreh-go!
Flee!

Ceno!
Keh-no!
See!

Alae!
Ah-lye!
Behold!

Tolo hi!
Toe-loe hee!
Come now!

No dhínen!
No thee-nehn!
Be silent!

Bertho!
Bare-tho!
Dare it!

Avo ’osto!
Ah-voe ohs-toe!
Fear not!

Avo acheno
Ah-voe ah-kheh-no
Don’t look back

Hebo estel
Heh-bo ehs-tell
Have hope



Insults

Nostach be Orch gaer
NOST-akh bay orkh gire
You smell like ten orcs

Garich i dhôl goll o Orch
Gahr-eekh ee thole goal oh orkh
You have the hollow head of an orc

Lasto lalaith nîn
Lah-stoh lah-LITHE neen
Hear/listen to my laughter

Rhachon le!
Rahkh-on lay!
I curse you!

Dôl lost lîn
Dole lohst leen
Your head is empty

Nai Ungoliant meditha le
Nie un-GOAL-ee-ahnt meh-DEETH-ah lay
May Ungoliant devour you

Labo vi Orodruin
Lah-boe vee Ore-oh-DROO-inn
Go jump in Mount Doom

Ti tállbe Orch
Tee tahl-bay Orkh
Go kiss an orc

Tevenyel
Q, Teh-vehn-yell
I hate you

Hria cuilë
Q, hear-ah kweel-ay
Get a life

Nai Valaraukar tye-mátar
Q, nye Vahl-are-ow-kahr too-ay-mah-tahr
May Balrogs eat you



Thank you’s

Hannon le
HAH-non lay
Thank you

Rim hennaid
Reem hen-ide
Many thanks

Hantale
Q, Hahn-TAH-lay
Thanks

Gen hannon
Gehn hahn-nohn
I thank you

Le hannon a tholel
Lay hahn-nohn ah thole-ehll
Thank you for coming



Other phrases/exclamations

Ai!
Eye!
Ah!

Le melon
Lay mell-on
I love you

Tancave
Q, tahn-KAH-vay
Yes [lit. "certainly"]

Lau
Q, Lou [as in loud]
No

Mae
My
Yes [lit. "well"]

Baw
Bow [rhymes with cow]
No [denying intentions]

Law
Low [as in loud]
No [denying facts]

Aur Onnad Meren!
Our oh-nahd mare-ehn!
Happy Birthday!

Garo arad-o-onnad ’elir!
Gah-roe ah-rahd-oh-on-nahd eh-leer!
Have a happy birthday!

--- eneth nîn
--- eh-nehth neen
My name is [your name here]

Im ---
Eem ---
I’m [your name here]

Estannen ---
Ehs-tahn-nehn ---
I’m called [your name here]

Nin estar ---
Neen ehs-tahr ---
They call me [your name here]

Findesselya vanya
Q, feen-dess-ell-yah vahn-yah
Your hair is pretty

Tiro na i ninniach vanui
Tear-oh nah ee neen-nee-ahkh vah-noo-ee.
Look at the beautiful rainbow

I Anor hílol
Ee Ah-nore hee-lole
The sun is shining

Hû nîn mant han
Hoo neen mahnt hahn
My dog ate it

Aníron gwanna
Ah-NEAR-on gwahn-nah
I wish I could leave

Ae anírach
Eye ah-NEAR-ahkh
If you wish

Rhaich!
Rike!
Curses!

Im ruthui!
Eem roo-thoo-ee!
I am angry!

Gelir na thaed
Geh-leer nah thide
Happy to help

Edro gûr lín
Eh-droe goor leen
Open your heart

Melin ceni hin lîn síla i ’eladhach
Meh-leen keh-nee heen leen see-lah ee eh-lahth-ahkh
I love to see your eyes shine when you laugh

Im gelir an le
Eem geh-leer ahn lay
I am happy for you

Hebin anim
Heh-bean ahn-eem
I keep it for myself

Glassen
Glahs-sehn
My pleasure

Im harnannen!
Eem hahr-nahn-nehn!
I’m wounded!

Gurth ’ni yrch!
Goorth nee oorkh!
Death to the orcs!

Telin o Imladris
Teh-leen oh Eem-lahd-rees
I come from Rivendell

Nostor nî ned ---
Nohs-tore nee nehd ---
My birthday is on ---

Gwedhithon na ---
Gweh-thee-thohn nah ---
I’m engaged to ---

Im gwennen na ---
Eem gweh-nehn nah ---
I’m married to ---

Aiya!
Q, Eye-ah!
Hail!

Im maer
Eem myre.
I’m well.

Aníron gladhad
Ah-NEAR-on glah-thahd
I want to laugh

Im gruitheb na ---
Eem grwee-thehb nah ---
I’m angry at --- (lit. "I feel angry toward ---")

Im lhaew
Eem lye
I’m ill

No ce ammaer ab lû thent
No kay ahm-myre ahb loo thehnt
May you be better soon

Im gosta
Eem gohs-tah
I’m afraid

Hain ú-’rogon
Hyne oo-roe-gohn
I do not fear them

Linnon am meleth vîn
Leen-non ahm meh-lehth veen
I sing because I love you (lit. "I sing for our love")

Sa farn palan
Sah fahrn pah-lahn
This is far enough

Pelin pedi i lam edhellen
Peh-leen peh-dee ee lahm eh-thehl-lehn
I can speak the Elvish language

Isusarad ’elir
Ees-oos-ahr-ahd ehl-eer
Merry Christmas

Idhrin-eden ’elir
Ee-threen-ehd-ehn ehl-eer
Happy New Year

Goheno nin
Go-hay-no neen
Forgive me

Ni quorya
Q, Nee quore-yah
I’m drowning

Heca, firimar
Q, Hay-kah fear-ee-mahr
Stand aside, mortals

Ya línna ambanna tulinuva nan
Q, Yah lihn-nah ahm-bahn-nah too-lee-noo-vah nahn
What goes up must come down



Farewells

Namárië
Nah-MAR-ee-ay
Farewell

Navaer
Nah-VIRE
Farewell

Belain na le
Beh-LINE nah lay
The Valar be with you

Calo anor na ven
KAH-loh AH-nore nah vehn
May the sun shine on your road

Garo arad vaer
GAH-roh ARE-ahd vire
Have a good day

Nai haryuvalyë melwa rë
Q, Nye hahr-YOO-vah-lee-ay MELL-wah ray
May you have a lovely day

Noro go hûl, bado go Eru
Nore-oh go hool, BAH-doe go air-OO
Run with the wind, go with God

Ná Elbereth veria le, ná elenath dín síla erin rád o chuil lín.
Nah Ell-bare-ehth vare-ee-ah lay, nah ELL-ehn-ahth deen see-lah air-een rahd oh hweel leen.
May Elbereth protect you, may her stars shine on the path of your life.

I Melain berio le
Ee meh-LINE bare-ee-oh lay
May the Valar keep you

Cuio vae!
Kwee-oh vye!
Fare well!

No galu govad gen
No gah-loo go-vahd gehn
May blessings go with you

No in elenath hîlar nan hâd gîn
No een elehn-nahth hee-lahr nahn hahd geen [hard G]
May all stars shine upon your path

Mára mesta
Q, Mah-rah meh-stah
Goodbye
Hope ya like it.
Aelindis 03/Apr/2006 at 09:39 AM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004

 Frodo544 : If you had gone to the trouble to read at least the last three posts, you would have noticed that this thread was intended to be a study group in order to learn Sindarin, not to accumulate a couple of random phrases, picked ud wherever.
I’m not going to elaborate on obvious errors or on the fact that some of your phrases are Quenya, actually. 
I would like to suggest that you consider what you are doing here, thank you.

Stiffler Vaneyar 03/Apr/2006 at 09:48 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Frodo544- I admire your persistence and love for the language, however, as Aelindis has already said, you should have read these last few posts.

But, I will say this: Learning Sindarin is not simply saying different phrases in the Language. To honestly learn Sindarin, you must understand the Grammar, punctuation and word usage. So, though you have meant well by giving us those phrases to us, you should go through and read the Pedin Edhellen (look in top post for link) and study it yourself, lesson by lesson, as I have. Actually, I summarised (kind of) the first couple of lessons in this activity, and you are welcome to use those.

By The Way, Welcome to the Plaza!

Thorsten 03/Apr/2006 at 11:44 PM
Banned Points: 2659 Posts: 2540 Joined: 05/Nov/2003
It’s the arwen-undomiel.com phraselist as far as I can see - and copying it entirely is not only a violation of copyright but also spamming and not very helpful as it contains plenty of mistakes.
Lethal_Murderer 04/Apr/2006 at 06:35 AM
Scribe of Minas Tirith Points: 2899 Posts: 1898 Joined: 14/Mar/2004

Oh well i have been back on the plaza for a really long time and havn’t thoguht about how things are going on with you guys, sorry about that. I missed this a lot when i was away but havenn’ the time to get back into, but now i think i should be able to find the time. It is really confusing as to hos things are going her at the moment. I have raed the OOC thread and there seems to bea lot of things going on there, but they died out suddenly. Is this group stil going to carry on or what is going to happen. Are people still having problems with openeing Pedin Edhellen. I know i can read, but it is all confusing me.

Stiffler Vaneyar 04/Apr/2006 at 09:15 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Thorsten- Yeah, I noticed that too. Maybe an admin can delete the post or something.

Lethal_Murederer- Good to see you again! Actually, the group sort-of died a little while ago and not much has happened. I was going to have this activity ended, but if you are still interested, we could probably work together and learn Sindarin. Whatever you want! Be sure to try and read all of the post that you haven’t already, okay!

Lethal_Murderer 07/Apr/2006 at 09:15 AM
Scribe of Minas Tirith Points: 2899 Posts: 1898 Joined: 14/Mar/2004
well iwas actually looking forward to do this as a group. i still have to look at the book which ihaven’t done in a long time. catchin up is going to take a long time for me especially with all the things i have going on here. If the entire group was present it would have been better as there would have been more interaction. A one on one wouldn’t be as fun.
Stiffler Vaneyar 17/Apr/2006 at 08:49 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

LM- Well, honestly, I was too. Maybe, we can try this one more time. I cannot be the only person to run this, though, because I am thinking about maybe spending less time on this site. But, that’s besides the point. I would love for you to help me with this, and I hope that this might actually work. Maybe we can change the curriculum a little bit?

Lady of gondor 17/Apr/2006 at 01:18 PM
Banned Points: 73 Posts: 18 Joined: 14/Apr/2006
Here I don’t know if you have them But words for you:
abrod-palan
abhorrent-thaur
abominal-thaur
across-thrad
afar-palan
and-a
ash-lith
autumn-yavie
awakening-echoir
bald-rudh
barrow-tur
to be-n
between-im
birch-brethil
bird-aew
blood-sereg
blossom-loth
blue-luin
bridge-iant
brillance-ril
chambers-sammath
chant-lin
children-hin
chill-ring
cloak-gollo
cloud-fan
crow-craban
cry-nall
day-or
dead-frin
dimness-weth
doom-amarth
dusk-moth
eagle-thoron
east-run
enter-minn
ever-ui
eye-hen
Hope it helps!
Thorsten 17/Apr/2006 at 11:33 PM
Banned Points: 2659 Posts: 2540 Joined: 05/Nov/2003
Lady of gondor, while it is rather popular to post a list of words quite unrelated to the thread topic (it gives you a few points after all...), it is also not very useful.

To answer your question: No, we don’t have many of these words as they are quite evidently corrupted versions of words Tolkien actually wrote. For example, in Tolkien’s language ’East’ is Rhûn, not **run, and so on. Thus, your list is not only unasked for, but also wrong. Please stick to the topic of the thread you’re posting in in the future. Thanks.
Harlindon 18/Apr/2006 at 08:44 AM
Soldier of Mordor Points: 1899 Posts: 1650 Joined: 17/Apr/2006

I would just like to recommend an IMMENSELY helpful site for those of you learning Sindarin through Pedin Edhellen(Thorstens course)-http://tolkien across the water.com  This site has very good Excersises including: Sindarin Crossword puzzles, conjugation exercises, vocabulary review adn much much more! This site was extremely helpful when I began learning Sindarin adn now I can say I am pretty good with it. Also try to look at what other sites think because much of sindarin is reconstructed by people such as David Salo(movies), Thorsten Renk(Parma Tyelpellassiva), and Ryzard Derdinski.(Gwaith-i-Phethdain)  But beware of Grelvish!

Some helpful sites-E.L.F.(a little advanced),   Parma Tyelpelassiva,   Gwaith-i-Phethdain(Fellowship of the WordSmiths), and Ardalambion(also a bit advanced)

All these sites are extremely useful and Ardalambion is one of th best sites out there for Tolkiens languages.

i valar berio le!

 

Harlindon 18/Apr/2006 at 08:52 AM
Soldier of Mordor Points: 1899 Posts: 1650 Joined: 17/Apr/2006

<Frodo 544  "ok i have quitea lot" -elvish phrases

These are from Arwen Undomiel.com and you didnt site them. The way i read it at first was that you came up with this on your on but when i read further i realized these were cut and pasted from Arwen Undomiel. you should always site were you got your info and give credit to whoever deserves it. Also, some of the phrases you posted are Quenya and irrelevent to the study of Sindarin.

Stiffler Vaneyar 19/Apr/2006 at 08:52 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005
Quote: Originally posted by Harlindon on Tuesday, April 18, 2006

 Thorsten Renk(Parma Tyelpellassiva),

 


Just so that you know, he is a member here! *g*

ANyway, thank you for your help! I will be checking that link out to see if uit is any good. I am not discrediting your link, just need to check it out, and beware of grelvish!

Also, you are completely correct in correcting what Frodo544 thought that he had correctly posted. Even after we had already tried to correct him ourselves. Your corrections are appreciated!

Lady of lorien 22/Apr/2006 at 12:36 PM
Scout of Lothlorien Points: 69 Posts: 14 Joined: 17/Apr/2006
Hi I was lady of Gondor my account was deactivated when my computer got this virus, anyway I apologize for the list eairlier I am new and still trying to get used to the forums, so any help or corrections is useful, so thanks, and I can’t do accents because I do not know how to get them, however the list was related they are sindarin- English and I did see a post earlier asking for help.javascript:AddSmileyIcon(’&rsquo
Stiffler Vaneyar 24/Apr/2006 at 08:41 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005
Okay- Lady- Thank you for telling us. I can’t do accents either, though I know how to (i think). Anyway, I believe tht you should go check out the Lorien Talan for Newbies and join it. I am the owner and I know that it will help a lot if you just try it!
Lady of lorien 14/May/2006 at 05:50 AM
Scout of Lothlorien Points: 69 Posts: 14 Joined: 17/Apr/2006
Thanks for the suggustuion Stiffiler I will checkout the Lorien Talan and join it.
P.S. ignor the spelling or typing erreors please I will try to fix them but sometimes I miss a fewjavascript:AddSmileyIcon(’&rsquo
Harlindon 25/May/2006 at 06:06 PM
Soldier of Mordor Points: 1899 Posts: 1650 Joined: 17/Apr/2006
Lady of lorien: For using accents try this link>>>http://www.lotrplaza.com/elves/sindarin/accents.asp<<<
They worked for my computer so I hope they work for you as well.  By the way, this link is for accents with PC’s so if you have a mac or something it might not work.
Finglinn 21/Sep/2006 at 05:45 AM
Youth of Imladris Points: 64 Posts: 7 Joined: 21/Sep/2006

Harlindon: I am checking this site out which you posted but the url is not correct, it should be:
http://tolkienacrossthewater.com/ 

And is the last post on this topic really May 25 ??

Lori 21/Sep/2006 at 05:59 AM
High Counsellor of Elrond Points: 22212 Posts: 17274 Joined: 16/Aug/2005
Yup, Finglinn, the last post indeed dates back to May since the person to run the studies (Stiffler) left the plaza and there was no activity here afterwards. But if you are interested in learning languages, then check out the School  of Imladris (<link), where Weny would be teaching Sindarin.
Btw, welcome to the plaza and Imladris.
Finglinn 21/Sep/2006 at 06:09 AM
Youth of Imladris Points: 64 Posts: 7 Joined: 21/Sep/2006

Gen hannon Loriwaynen

Finglinn 22/Sep/2006 at 05:27 AM
Youth of Imladris Points: 64 Posts: 7 Joined: 21/Sep/2006

This is maybe a strange question but isnt here anyone that can replace Stiffler and continue or even start over the lessons of sindarin? as I think there are still many people who are willing to learn this fantastic language. And this is after all the Sindarin study topic..

Aelindis 22/Sep/2006 at 06:09 AM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004

Finglinn, if you read the whole thread carefully, you will without doubt get an idea of the reasons why this study group did not work.
As Loriwaynen wrote, you may sign up for the upcoming Sindarin lessons in Imladris.
Otherwise and from my own personal experience, I would strongly recommend Thorsten Renk’s excellent Sindarin course. If you spend about one hour of learning every day, you will grasp the basics within a few weeks.

<Language Mod edit>: Linked to Thorsten’s courses.

Finglinn 23/Sep/2006 at 08:59 AM
Youth of Imladris Points: 64 Posts: 7 Joined: 21/Sep/2006

Hannon Aelindis, but actually I am learning from Pedin Edhellen for about a week now, and the only thing I hoped was that I could learn it together with others like in the thread before this one, they were all introducing each other and learning it together. But if I see the School of Imladris, how can I join the lessons of Sindarin?
Because I saw that they are learning history, land and people too there. I really want to learn those things too but learning sindarin is the first thing I want to do.

Aelindis 23/Sep/2006 at 09:58 AM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004
You can sign up for the lessons in the School of Imladris OOC thread.
Stiffler Vaneyar 02/Oct/2006 at 06:33 PM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Yes, I apologise for that everyone. This thread has sort of died. Aelindis and the others are teaching some languages in the Imladris school, so get on over there.

If there is ever an interest again, perhaps we can open this up again and start fresh...with a different way of doing things.

Finglinn 05/Oct/2006 at 04:59 AM
Youth of Imladris Points: 64 Posts: 7 Joined: 21/Sep/2006

But what went wrong with this thread exactly? is it because some people post a list of sindarin or quenya words/phrases? ’cause if that is the case you could state that these will not be tolerated and only those who are willing to learn the language should come here. I think if we really try this it could work out.

Buageard 05/Oct/2006 at 05:33 AM
Labourer of Minas Tirith Points: 371 Posts: 5 Joined: 01/Oct/2006
I agree. I also want to learn the language, and I thought this was the thread I need.. but unfortunality it isnt
But I really hope we could make the best out of it and re-start these lessons
Magradhaid 05/Oct/2006 at 11:57 AM
Imp of Umbar Points: 7957 Posts: 8204 Joined: 13/Sep/2008
Finglinn: That wasn’t really the problem; it seems the problem was that many people stopped showing up, some progressed faster or slower than others, and the leader of the study group (Stiffler) left the Plaza for a while; after that the thread died.
Finglinn 06/Oct/2006 at 01:36 AM
Youth of Imladris Points: 64 Posts: 7 Joined: 21/Sep/2006
ah, that’s too bad.. but what can we do about that? I guess there are still some people that want to learn the language together like before.
Tolkien Rules 13/Oct/2006 at 12:08 PM
Gardener of Lothlorien Points: 276 Posts: 484 Joined: 11/Oct/2006

      Hi 

since no one seem to have translated Mae govannen I thought I’d have a go.

Aragorn: well met !. Arwen: well met! I am Arwen. Aragorn:I am Aragorn. I am human. You are a elven maid?. Arwen: Yes, I am elven. I am the daughter of Elrond. Aragorn: The lord of Rivendell?. Arwen: Yes, The halfelven. You are a lord?. Aragorn: No. I am of the D’unadain . Arwen: Farewell Aragorn!. Aragorn: Farewell Awen Undomiel !. 

       Was that right?        Please! Please! Please! don’t stop this thread, I’ve only Just gone on it!

Aelindis 13/Oct/2006 at 01:09 PM
Elder of Imladris Points: 1987 Posts: 916 Joined: 18/Dec/2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tolkien Rules on Friday, October 13, 2006
since no one seem to have translated Mae govannen I thought I’d have a go.

Aragorn: well met !. Arwen: well met! I am Arwen. Aragorn:I am Aragorn. I am human. You are a elven maid?. Arwen: Yes, I am elven. I am the daughter of Elrond. Aragorn: The lord of Rivendell?. Arwen: Yes, The halfelven. You are a lord?. Aragorn: No. I am of the D’unadain . Arwen: Farewell Aragorn!. Aragorn: Farewell Awen Undomiel !. 

       Was that right?       


This dialogue was not only written but also translated by Thorsten Renk himself, in fact at the beginning of Lesson 1 of his Sindarin course, and no, you did not copy it correctly.
Tolkien Rules 14/Oct/2006 at 11:39 AM
Gardener of Lothlorien Points: 276 Posts: 484 Joined: 11/Oct/2006
 I’m sorry but you seem to have misunderstood me, I was reading the thread and I saw that one of the lessons was to translate Mae govannen so I thought I’d see if I could do it. I hope I didn’t cause offence Ps could someone tell me the correct translation? 
Stiffler Vaneyar 14/Oct/2006 at 11:56 AM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

This thread died before I actually left the Plaza. Aelindis, Thorsten, and I were talking about this a bit before I left, and the point I thought was clearly stated. Allow me to repost some of what Thorsten said in another thread, and no we will not be discussing why he is not here any longer.

The reason is that people vastly underestimate the amount of work necessary to learn a language to the level where it can be enjoyed. At a pace of 1 hour/day, it takes a person with a talent for languages at least a month to pick up the essentials of Sindarin and Quenya.

Only some few are willing to work that pace, that’s why classes break apart as one group doesn’t advance across the first lessons while the others do - usually lessons die out after two-three weeks or so.

Which is exactly what this thread did. I am willing to try it again, but I just spoke with the administrators about opening something similar in another board, and they said that no threads like that will be allowed for some time. So, we may have to do our own priovate lessons. The school in Imladris is open for lessons, though. So you can always go on over there.

Perhaps one day we MIGHT try again. Until then, i apologise for not being able to help you.