Can Ents go to Valinor?

Archive Home > Middle-earth People & Races
Dragons Malice 23/Jan/2006 at 06:57 AM
Scholar of Isengard Points: 792 Posts: 179 Joined: 16/Jan/2006

Whilst re-reading TTT I noticed in the chapter "Treebeard" an Elvish Song implying that Ents and Ent-wives can go to the Uttermost West, is this correct? Are they Immortal like the Elves? If so then perhaps the Ents will find the Ent-wives again when they reach Aman.

"Together we will take the road that leads into the West, And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest."

Treebeard also mentions "We believe that we may meet again in a time to come, and perhaps we shall find somewhere a land where we can live together and both be content. But it is foreboded that that will only be when we have lost all that we now have."

Perhaps the loss he refers to is their physical form and then their ’spirit’  can go to Aman, however this is just speculation on my part and even Treebeard sounds unsure.

Can anyone enlighten me?

stevem1 23/Jan/2006 at 07:02 AM
Pilgrim of Isengard Points: 1464 Posts: 756 Joined: 26/Feb/2008
It would be interesting to see them on the ships. I guess they would have to take a lot of entdraught with them - they would have to gather it and get it to the Grey Havens somehow (on wagons?), but at least there would be little chance of drowning. Its an amusing image.
Daywalker 23/Jan/2006 at 07:14 AM
Tulkas Points: 18469 Posts: 12218 Joined: 17/Dec/2004

I cant say exatly would they go to Aman but this one quote does suggets that no. It’s from RotK, when Celeborn and Galadriel meet Treebeard. Treebeard," It is long, long time we met by stock or by stone, A vanimar, vanimálion nostari!’he said. "It is sad that we should meet only thus at the ending. For the world is changing; i feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air. I do not think that we shall meet again."Celeborn "I do not know, Eldest." Galadriel, " Not in Middle-Earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wawe are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!"

Phil_d_one 23/Jan/2006 at 10:20 AM
Shipwright of Umbar Points: 13181 Posts: 12667 Joined: 14/Jan/2004
Well, I must say that I’ve never actually thought about this, since my debating with regards to Ents is normally reserved to the fate of the Entwives and the mortality (or not) of the Ents. So well done for an interesting topic

But I think that the answer is somewhat tied to the idea of their mortality, particularly with regards to the interpretation of this quote from Letter 338, which is often used in debating that topic.

As for the Entwives: I do not know. I have written nothing beyond the first few years of the Fourth Age. [...] It is plain that there would be for Ents no re-union in ’history’ — but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some ’earthly paradise’ until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were ’not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory.’....
(Letter 338)

So here we have a reference to an Earthly paradise. With the hints we are given as to the fate of forests in Middle-earth, it is apparent enough that this earthly paradise, whatever it is, is nowhere within Middle-earth; and Aman does indeed seem the most logical (if not the only) option. So on this alone, I would have to say that yes, the Ents certainly could go to Aman.

But the issue of mortality also comes into the picture. For from the above quote it is also apparant that the mortality or immortality of the Ents is no clear-cut issue, such that the Ents themselves have their own ideas and hopes, which are perhaps not identical to those of others. So with the possibility (at the very least) of mortality and escape from teh Circles of the World, does the idea of Ents in Valinor still hold water?

I’m afraid that there is no answer here, since the entire quote dabbles in the hypothetical a lot. But if I were to throw an answer out there, it would certainly be that the Ents could go to Aman.
Elennah 24/Jan/2006 at 02:53 AM
Defender of Imladris Points: 790 Posts: 32 Joined: 08/Jan/2006
I guess they might. Didn’t they first came to be when Yavanna sent spirits to Middle-earth to protect the trees? Please correct me if I’m wrong, it’s been a while since I read the Sil.

If correct, wouldn’t they be ’good’ spirits, fit for Aman, entitled to a place there, and consequently, when an ent died, would’nt the spirit return to Aman?
Tindomelin 24/Jan/2006 at 03:20 AM
Garment-crafter of Lothlorien Points: 564 Posts: 63 Joined: 26/Jun/2005
So the discussion comes to two possibilities: 1) Ents go to Valinor in the natural process of migration, like elves do; 2) Ents’ spirits go to Aman after the death of their phisical bodies, again, like elves do. Mayar seems to do the same, don’t they? To me both those possibilities for Ents look quite possible and not in contradiction with each other
Dragons Malice 24/Jan/2006 at 06:34 AM
Scholar of Isengard Points: 792 Posts: 179 Joined: 16/Jan/2006

Thanks Phil

I have re-read the passage with Treebeard, Celeborn and Galadriel in RotK and I think that the Ents are still in with a chance for Immortality.

Treebeard: ’I do not think we shall meet again.’ And Celeborn said: ’I do not know, Eldest.’ But Galadriel said: ’Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!’  Many Partings RotK My emphasis

It reads ’ I do not know’, ’But Galadriel said’ it doesn’t read And Galadriel said’, so I think that  Galadriel is disagreeing with Celeborn and she suspects that there may be at least some hope for the Ents.

’but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some ’earthly paradise’ until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were ’not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory.’....
(Letter 338) Emphasis is mine

This passage also indicates that the both the Ents and Elves have not been told by the Valar the destiny of the Ents. Please correct me if I’m reading it wrong. Also does anyone know if the Region of Beleriand will be raised when Arda is remade?

Phil_d_one 24/Jan/2006 at 07:46 AM
Shipwright of Umbar Points: 13181 Posts: 12667 Joined: 14/Jan/2004

Maracthor: Just commenting regarding your analysis of the quote from Letter 338.

until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were ’not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory.’....
(Letter 338)

What is being said is that neither Ents nor Elves can see beyond the end of Arda. Elves, for example, know that they are bound to this world, but have no idea what will happen once it is destroyed, only two possible guesses, neither of which are appealing to them -- and hence they just have blind trust that Eru will work things out for them.

Dragons Malice 24/Jan/2006 at 07:59 AM
Scholar of Isengard Points: 792 Posts: 179 Joined: 16/Jan/2006

Thanks Phil  makes sense

Feliath Dunami 24/Jan/2006 at 11:30 AM
Soldier of Dale Points: 4192 Posts: 4616 Joined: 13/Dec/2005
Just out of curiosity, if ents were allowed into Valinor, how would they make the journey? They are not exactly elves you know, and not more than a couple could fit on a ship. So from the logistical point of view, is it possible?

If it is just one of those things that you just need to accept and not try to find an explanation for, then thwap me good and hard.
Phil_d_one 24/Jan/2006 at 11:52 AM
Shipwright of Umbar Points: 13181 Posts: 12667 Joined: 14/Jan/2004
Feliath: Assuming of course that they could (from a theoretical view) just leap on a ship and head to Valinor -- since I myself am far from stating that as an outright conclusion -- then yes, it would merely be one of those things that we are to accept. They could use a very large ship, or they could go in very small loads. They were large, but little more than double the size of an elf.
Blackrose Bugg 24/Jan/2006 at 12:07 PM
New Soul Points: 21505 Posts: 30286 Joined: 19/Jan/2003
On a boat?  Boats are made of...wood...isn’t that rather like cannibalism in a weird sort of way?    I tend to side with those that believe that the spirits that originally came to the call of Yavanna would be free to depart once freed from the corporeal bodies of the Ents.  However, they did not originally COME from Valinor, so would they go there?
Feliath Dunami 24/Jan/2006 at 12:19 PM
Soldier of Dale Points: 4192 Posts: 4616 Joined: 13/Dec/2005

Haha that is a strange thought... tree cannibalism.

Well if you are talking about only their spirits going to Valinor, then of course there is no reason why they couldn’t... spirits can go anywhere and they don’t take up space like Ents do.

(BTW Blackrose Bugg, why does your rank say "Jerry" ?   Is it some more of the crazyness of Valinor? )
<Varda edit-  Yes, it is exactly that.  While most of us were out changing quiz stats, moving threads, etc.  no one thought to lock the door to the name file cupboard, and Ally went a bit bonkers.  As you move around, you might note a few other Valar with strange names...Hoth, for instance is Tom-  making us Tom and Jerry>

Phil_d_one 24/Jan/2006 at 12:39 PM
Shipwright of Umbar Points: 13181 Posts: 12667 Joined: 14/Jan/2004
BB: I assume that Treebeard’s house was made of wood, as were his chairs and tables, and his drinking vessels. So I don’t think they used that reasoning, especially since cannibalism implies eating, and since Ents are not trees, and trees are not Ents. And I think that what is being referenced is whether they could go while alive, though I could be wrong...
Tindomelin 24/Jan/2006 at 02:59 PM
Garment-crafter of Lothlorien Points: 564 Posts: 63 Joined: 26/Jun/2005
Is there any reason for Ents to go back to Aman in the form they have in Middle-Earth? If they were spirits in Valinor before, and came later to Endore to care for the trees, then their appearance that we know may be a particular tool for fulfilling their job, which they will not need when go back to Aman.
Blackrose Bugg 24/Jan/2006 at 03:08 PM
New Soul Points: 21505 Posts: 30286 Joined: 19/Jan/2003
Phil - that’s so wonderfully odd - I envisioned Treebeard’s house as a rocky place - live trees lining the entrance, etc.  but with stone walls, bowls, tables, etc. - but - I presume that you mean alive and incorporated into the Entish form- as who is to say if the spirits that first entered the trees are "alive" in any sense we would recognize when only in their spirit form?  (And while I know that trees and Ents are different, somehow I am not sure that the ship builders, who were probably NOT Ents would know the difference between a tree - and a Ent that has gone Treeish)
ElendilTheFair 24/Jan/2006 at 03:15 PM
New Soul Points: 18587 Posts: 10144 Joined: 14/Jul/2005

Aiwe, as BB has said, the spirits would later become the Ents entered Endore before the creation of Valinor, so there is really no reason to believe that they would go to Aman, since it was not where they originated from. 

Feliath, "Jerry" is the "crazyness of Valinor".  There’s always something crazy going on in there, why do you think everyone tries to get in?

Tindomelin 25/Jan/2006 at 12:38 AM
Garment-crafter of Lothlorien Points: 564 Posts: 63 Joined: 26/Jun/2005
Thanks, Elendil, I’ve missed this point. But then, what is the Ents’ motivation to go to Valinor? A hope to find the Ent-wives? Or a hope to find a new land to live in? Honestly, I know little about the Ents and can’t really imagine their motivation for such a migration, but maybe someone here can explain...
Phil_d_one 25/Jan/2006 at 01:55 AM
Shipwright of Umbar Points: 13181 Posts: 12667 Joined: 14/Jan/2004

Aiwe: To my way of thinking, it would be to find the Entwives. And the possibility that they could meet the Entwives in Valinor (an ’earthly paradise’) is the only evidence I can see that would suggest that they would be able to go to Aman without dieing, since all evidence seems to point to Entish mortality, and to the best of our knowledge, no mortals are allowed to go to Valinor.

BB: Yes of course, I mean alive as Ents.

Dragons Malice 25/Jan/2006 at 06:54 AM
Scholar of Isengard Points: 792 Posts: 179 Joined: 16/Jan/2006

Wow, thank you all for the wonderful input.

When I first envisioned Ents going to Valinor it was my thought that it would be their ’Spirits’ and not a ’Physical’ migration. After all the Ent-wives are more than likely dead and the only way for the Ents to be re-united with them would be a "Spiritual’ reunion.

Wellinghall’s walls and roof are made of stone, so are the table and the jars but what the bowls are made of isn’t stated but I assume that they are also stone. Maybe Cirdan can get the Dwarves to help make the boats of stone......

25/Jan/2006 at 08:40 AM
Chieftain of Mordor Points: 8583 Posts: 9212 Joined: 11/Jun/2004

If all the best Elvish and Dwarvish crafters had been still alive (or if modern-day Ents weren’t entirely "treeish"), then in the proposition that Ents would depart to the west in physical form, could the crafters had made them an aircraft carrier? There’s little to nothing on it that would be made of wood, and it’d hold lots and lots of space for those big Ents.

Wait, there’s no chance that they’d be able to find the path by crossing over the grinding ice as the Noldor had done, is there (granted, the Noldor went the other way towards Middle-earth)? It’d be a very dangerous route, but considering the sinking of Beleriand the grinding ice would probably be even less excessible.

Well, maybe with any luck if the Ents departed to Aman in spirit form they’d be granted new bodies upon arrival.

Nav 25/Jan/2006 at 12:23 PM
Weathered Ent of Fangorn Points: 5671 Posts: 6218 Joined: 10/Dec/2005
X, as far as the grinding ice goes, wouldn’t that be kind of cold, seeing as Ents can’t exactly bundle up in parkas? And Phil_d and Blackrose/Jerry , I always imagined stone furnishings, too.
Sirlinnon (Thom) 25/Jan/2006 at 12:45 PM
Master Shipwright of Lindon Points: 20663 Posts: 22795 Joined: 30/Apr/2003

On Cannabilism & TB’s House....

TB does say that cutting trees down and leaving them there to rot is "Orc Mischeif" - or words to that effect.

I know people often mention "cannabalism" - but if leaving them to rot is a "sin" for lack of a better word, wouldn’t you take the final gift of someone and use them? *g* cannabilism in one way, but if you think of it its nothing more or less than using all the abilities someone has.

And Treebeard’s "house" is actually a wide space/court lined with trees with a cave at the back - the only wood is living....

Quotes;
"Treebeard strode up the slope, hardly slackening his pace. Suddenly before them the hobbits saw a wide opening. Two great trees stood there, one on either side, like living gate-posts; but there was no gate save their crossing and interwoven boughs...
...Beyond them was a wide level space, as though the floor of a great hall had been cut in the side of the hill. On either hand the walls sloped upwards, until they were fifty feet high or more, and along each wall stood an aisle of trees that also increased in height as they marched inwards.
At the far end the rock-wall was sheer, but at the bottom it had been hollowed back into a shallow bay with an arched roof: the only roof of the hall, save the branches of the trees, which at the inner end overshadowed all the ground leaving only a broad open path in the middle. A little stream escaped from the springs above, and leaving the main water, fell tinkling down the sheer face of the wall, pouring in silver drops, like a fine curtain in front of the arched bay. The water was gathered again into a stone basin in the floor between the trees, and thence it spilled and flowed away beside the open path, out to rejoin the Entwash in its journey through the forest.
[...]
For a moment Treebeard stood under the rain of the falling spring, and took a deep breath; then he laughed, and passed inside. A great stone table stood there, but no chairs. At the back of the bay it was already quite dark. Treebeard lifted two great vessels and stood them on the table. They seemed to be filled with water; but he held his hands over them, and immediately they began to glow, one with a golden and the other with a rich green light; and the blending of the two lights lit the bay; as if the sun of summer was shining through a roof of young leaves. Looking back, the hobbits saw that the trees in the court had also begun to glow, faintly at first, but steadily quickening, until every leaf was edged with light: some green, some gold, some red as copper; while the tree-trunks looked like pillars moulded out of luminous stone.
[...]
He went to the back of the bay, and then they saw that several tall stone jars stood there, with heavy lids.
[...]
"This is an ent-house," he said,"and there are no seats, I fear. But you may sit on the table." Picking up the hobbits he set them on the great stone slab, six feet above the ground, and there they sat dangling their legs, and drinking in sips..."

and

"..Down on the borders they are felling trees-good trees. Some of the trees they just cut down and leave to rot - orc-mischief that; but most are hewn up and carried off to feed the fires of Orthanc. There is always a smoke rising from Isengard these days..."

and

"... for the Ents loved the great trees; and the wild woods, and the slopes of the high hills; and they drank of the mountain-streams, and ate only such fruit as the trees let fall in their path..."

All from Chapter 4 Treebeard TTT

26/Jan/2006 at 11:26 AM
Chieftain of Mordor Points: 8583 Posts: 9212 Joined: 11/Jun/2004
Okay, maybe Entcraft carriers are out of the question, but I see no reason why the Elves of Lindon, Lórien, and Imladris couldn’t make those over-sized parkas for them. Sides, real trees can last cold temperatures really well, right? (sheesh, it’s the dead of winter right now and even I can’t answer this!) I don’t see temperature as too great a factor, atleast not when you compare the actual travel over the ice, which is probably broken up into small, floating ice sheets and glaciers and icebergs. If the Noldor had such trouble, the Ents probably would be worse off, and that’s if they can even get to Grinding Ice to begin with. Or if going across the ice would even lead them to the straight path!
Blackrose Bugg 26/Jan/2006 at 11:44 AM
New Soul Points: 21505 Posts: 30286 Joined: 19/Jan/2003
X- I clearly remember reading a novel in which the sap would freeze so quickly in "hard winters" that trees would literally explode like fireworks.  It was common enough to be a known "travel hazard" in those regions-  although I can’t recall what book it was, the mental image stayed with me.  I don’t know enough botany to know if it is possible- but I do know enough to know it did not strike me as implausible.  (And although we have no real "trees" here on the tundra- I walk warily near the stunted ones we do have when its minus 25 like today )
Sirlinnon (Thom) 26/Jan/2006 at 11:55 AM
Master Shipwright of Lindon Points: 20663 Posts: 22795 Joined: 30/Apr/2003
*grins* Being totally ridiculous, but they might just throw a line to an Elvish ship and be towed along...after all apart from the Beech they should float.
Ollyorin Dagda 30/Jan/2006 at 01:25 PM
Assassin of Mordor Points: 5704 Posts: 3118 Joined: 28/Jan/2005
This topic begs the question that maybe they would be allowed to go into the west if treebeard or someone else had the ring in his possesion for a while. Like in the books. All ringbearers can travel to the west, even Sam and he had it for 2 seconds. As to BB’s statement that it would be like cannibalism, it would be, they would be against it. Remember what happened when treebeard’s friends were cut down by Saruman!!!
Bearamir 30/Jan/2006 at 03:48 PM
Emeritus Points: 16276 Posts: 16742 Joined: 21/Sep/2008
Ladies & Gentlemen:  This thread has been nominated for transfer to the Ad Lore Forum.  In keeping with the new forum restructuring, I need to ask everyone to *please* keep in mind that the Ad Lore Forum is a showcase forum, so please keep your posts topical, and with the quality that reflects that designation.
Stronghold 31/Jan/2006 at 10:00 AM
Scholar of Isengard Points: 1283 Posts: 1139 Joined: 10/Dec/2008

Well, if Ents are really the generically used term of ’maiar’, then you’d think their spirits would ’go West’  upon their deaths like other dead Maia spirits do or want to (ie: Saruman looked to the West, etc). 

Ents were trees that ’spirits from beyond’ embodied.  The exact nature of these spirits remains a mystery and I’d think that the master self-revisionist (JRRT) probably never decided on ALL aspects of their nature.  But, at least he finally decided they could not have offspring. 

So, do Ents and Entwives have children?  We just don’t know.  If not, I’d go along with them being Maiar and their spirits heading West when they go pinenuts up.  Otherwise, maybe they’d have to take a raft to find the Straight Road. 

A very good topic!

 

Isiloloriel 31/Jan/2006 at 06:03 PM
Farmer of the Shire Points: 417 Posts: 30 Joined: 17/Jan/2006

Entings are ent children.

Phil_d_two: Ents aren’t trees?  Treebeard says that many ents were getting tree-ish and many trees were getting ent-ish.  ???

There is no grinding ice leading to the straight way to Valinor.  The ice crossed by the elves was there before the world was bent, at which time the straight road became a road only reached by some sort of spiritual way (that I don’t think I’ve ever heard explained, really) or by the ships (??) made by Cirdan.  The last ships passed over to Valinor without any indication that Ents were on them.  Also, I don’t recall that the Ents would/could go to Valinor via ships.  Maybe, as others have said, they went back to Valinor in spirit form after they died, but the elves’ ships were made by and for elves and the only non-elves to use them were two hobbits and a dwarf (we think). 

Has anyone ever noticed that the FotR has Sam mentioning an Ent to the miller’s son?  He says (don’t have the book with me or I would quote directly) that his cousin saw an elm (?) walking across the North farthing.  I’ve always thought that that meant the Entwives had settled somewhere around the Shire, going along with Treebeard mentioning to Merry and Pippin how much the Entwives would have loved their country.

  

Isiloloriel 31/Jan/2006 at 06:33 PM
Farmer of the Shire Points: 417 Posts: 30 Joined: 17/Jan/2006

Whoops, sorry, that would be three hobbits (Samwise).

By the way, ARE ents spirits sent by Yavanna, or are they - as Treebeard said - trees woken up by the elves and taught to talk?

Master of Doom 31/Jan/2006 at 10:51 PM
Torturer of Mordor Points: 2358 Posts: 1327 Joined: 26/Aug/2003

the spirits would later become the Ents entered Endore before the creation of Valinor, so there is really no reason to believe that they would go to Aman, since it was not where they originated from. 

The elves didn’t originate in the Undying lands either, but that’s where they go nonetheless.  I don’t think that would have anything to do with it.  The dwarves believe that they go to Mandos in ’halls set apart.’  Since they were the creation of Aule, and the ents are Yavanna’s, I don’t really see a reason that the same would not be true for them.  As to whether or not they could go there before they die, I think that would be up to the Valar, wouldn’t it?  They are the ones who put the ban on the Noldor, and rescinded it for Earendil.  They are the ones who said the Numenoreans couldn’t come, and when they did anyway, the Valar had Eru take care of it for them.  In my opinion, anyone could go to Valinor, but only if the Valar say so.

The Runeseer 13/Feb/2006 at 01:18 PM
New Soul Points: 74 Posts: 3 Joined: 06/Feb/2006
the ents were originally created by teh Valar Yavanna, and are therefore connected to her power. thus it stands to reason that they should be able to go into the west, or at the very least some sort of Entish paradise. after all,  the other children of illuvatar have a final destination which is portrayed as some sort of paradise (although the ending place for Men is only hinted at and is left somewhat of an enigma)
Elenlinde 14/Feb/2006 at 10:59 AM
Defender of Imladris Points: 716 Posts: 220 Joined: 30/Oct/2004

This topic has really interested me, but I also have some questions.  It’s true about Valinor and anyone being able to go on agreement of the Valar, that’s how Bilbo was able to go into the west.  I agree that the Ents will go to some Entish paradise, but how will they do it?  Treebeard does say that some trees are becoming treeish, so does that mean that they are becoming silent, and still able to listen?  Or does that mean that they have left their bodies and gone to this Entish paradise.  Because doesn’t Treebeard say, I can’t remember which chapter in or in which book, but doesn’t he say something along the lines that even if an Ent goes silent it will always be able to listen and to wake? 

rumtumtum 18/Feb/2006 at 09:04 AM
Banned Points: 143 Posts: 3 Joined: 18/Feb/2006
Well. I believe that it could be possible. The Ents were created to be shepards of the forest. If you could remember that in the books, only one Dwarf, went into the west and that was Gimli with Legolas. Talking about going into the east. Elves were meant to go there, but since there have been quite a few exceptions to the rule, I believe that they could have. But if the Valar loved them, you would think that they would have a couple in the promised lands? Its just a friendly thought. And im confused why the Entwives left. My theory is that they left to show men agriculture. But since Melkor (Morgoth)hates all things Eru he could have destroyed them along with the Elves kingdoms and/or Sauron could have destroyed them with the kingdom of Armor. Also they could have all departed to the promised lands, but that seem s to be farfetched. The most likley answer to all this is that like, legends, J.R.R Tolkein wanted to have a few open ends to let people speculate and fantasize. He seems to be that sort of person
Finglas leafloc 19/Feb/2006 at 07:20 AM
Huorn of Fangorn Points: 320 Posts: 17 Joined: 18/Feb/2006
were ents not spirits that simply inhabited trees(’summoned’  by yavanna)...? correct me if im wrong!! as for the entwives, didnt they cross the river so that they could ’tend’ the smaller trees, fruit trees and flowers. and as the male ents liked the the big trees they stayed in the forests. yea the entwives taught the men agriculture but sumhow in the second age the gardens of the entwives were destroyed and the vanished...anyone know how? 
Claleborn 03/Mar/2006 at 09:17 AM
Gardener of Lothlorien Points: 173 Posts: 88 Joined: 02/Mar/2006
Quote: Originally posted by stevem1 on Monday, January 23, 2006
It would be interesting to see them on the ships. I guess they would have to take a lot of entdraught with them - they would have to gather it and get it to the Grey Havens somehow (on wagons?), but at least there would be little chance of drowning. Its an amusing image.
                 They could be the ships!!!!!!
Alkin 15/Apr/2006 at 12:14 PM
Garment-crafter of Lothlorien Points: 517 Posts: 74 Joined: 10/Apr/2006
That is a really good question. I have never thought about it before. I would think that they wouldn’t be able to. Seeing that they arn’t elves. I think the songs that they sing are more of a metaphore then an actuall fact based story. And I hve seen alot of people mention that it is more of a spiritual reunion with teh ent wives then a physical one and i aggree with that. West may be refering to some sort of ansectril (spelling?) home of the ents. If they elves cam from teh west why not the ents. West after all is kind of the "good" direction in Lotr.
Lady of gondor 17/Apr/2006 at 11:40 AM
Banned Points: 73 Posts: 18 Joined: 14/Apr/2006

I do not think that ents can as they are treeish and need soil and water. Soil would be hard to get on a boat in large quantities and they are earth creatures so I don’t think they are overly mobile, the ship is also wood so they could have proplems emotionally with that dead relitive or somthing.

<Nessa Edit:  For some reason you had extraneous coding in your reply.  I have edited your post to remove it>

stevem1 18/Apr/2006 at 01:02 AM
Pilgrim of Isengard Points: 1464 Posts: 756 Joined: 26/Feb/2008
I have been thinking about this (since I posted earlier in the thread) but I think I have changed my mind slightly.

I actually do not think they would want to go to valinor. If you think about it their great love is the trees of ME and they are creatures of the soil. Not one of the first races, I don’t think (they were woken by the Elves) and so, although fully intelligent, I feel that they are intrisically tied to ME. This is their world and they would not want to leave it. I think it would be possible but I don’t think they would want to.
Nenuphar 19/Apr/2006 at 11:50 AM
Guardian of Imladris Points: 4435 Posts: 1966 Joined: 13/Aug/2005
On the other hand, they might find that the land in Valinor was exactly what they wanted. In Morgoth’s Ring (sorry, too tired to look up the quote), Tolkien talked about why humans weren’t allowed in Valinor. One of the main things he mentioned was that the plant and animal life had been slowed there so that their lives would seem to elves the way plant and animal lives seem to us (i.e., shorter, but not going away in the blink of an eye). His point was that humans weren’t meant to live in Middle-earth forever, and had a sense of this future destiny somewhere else. Because of this, they would either continue with short lives, and thus be miserable and jealous, or else have long lives but still be miserable because they would be longing for death and what came after.

This doesn’t seem like it would be a problem with Ents, though. As far as I know, we haven’t learned anything about their post-Middle-earth destiny, and their lives are already long enough as to fit in well to Valinor. I think they might well like it there.

Quick question: several people refered to the origins of the Ents. Could someone enlighten me, please? I only know of a brief reference in the Sil.
Nenuphar 19/Apr/2006 at 11:44 PM
Guardian of Imladris Points: 4435 Posts: 1966 Joined: 13/Aug/2005
Okay, sorry about the double post, but I was suddenly called away from the computer last night and had to finish up quickly. What I was trying to say was that we don’t know anything about what will happen to the Ents after they die. However, since they already have a very long lifespan (it seems to me that they live for thousands of years), they wouldn’t have the same issues as humans would have; even though they would die, unlike the Elves, they would still have the chance to live a long, full life with the Valar and their elven companions (with whom the Ents get along very well).

As far as being part of Middle-earth and not being happy away from it, I don’t know. That might be the case, but on the other hand, they might be like the Elves: they love Middle-earth, but grow tired of seeing all of the waste, destruction, war, and loss that one experiences away from Valinor. I could see them enjoying the shepherding of trees in Valinor as well, and loving the chance to be with Yavanna and the other Valar.

BTW, the section I refered to in my last post was the section "Aman and Mortal Men", the last section in the last chapter, "Myths Transformed".
Melkor6000 21/Apr/2006 at 08:06 AM
Scavenger of Mordor Points: 477 Posts: 54 Joined: 09/Sep/2004
It does seem that considering the Ents’ slow, methodical habits (as is demonstated in Chapter 4 of the two towers) they should be more likely than any to returnto the Blessed Isles.  Hey, maybe they will find the entives there 
Huor Nólatári 14/Jun/2006 at 05:52 AM
Gardener of Lothlorien Points: 256 Posts: 46 Joined: 05/Jun/2006
Taking into consideration that several races who are a lot less "clued-up" about a place such as Aman (for example, Hobbits) have indeed made the journey to the Uttermost West, I would think it indeed possible for Ents themselves to go to Valinor.
orthon udun 14/Jun/2006 at 09:09 AM
Youth of the Mark Points: 69 Posts: 20 Joined: 05/Nov/2005
After Aulë created the dwarves, Yavanna wanted her creatures to be able to protect themselves.
"If thou hadst thy will, what wouldst thou reserve?" said Manwë. "Of all thy realm, who dost thou hold dearest?"
"All have their worth," said Yavanna, "and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear. Long in the growing, swift they shall be in the felling, and unless the pay toll with fruit upon bough little mourned in their passing. So I see in my thought. Would that the trees might speak on the behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!"

And in the next paragraph, she explains that in the Song, some of the trees sang when Ulmo built the clouds and poured out rain. It would seem as though they were Maiar, because they are independent of the Valar, and sing to Iluvatar. Being so close to Yavanna, I would think that they could go there if they choose.
Nenuphar 14/Jun/2006 at 01:48 PM
Guardian of Imladris Points: 4435 Posts: 1966 Joined: 13/Aug/2005
orthon udun: Do you think you could give the book reference for your quote? I would love to have a better reference for Ent background.
orthon udun 14/Jun/2006 at 08:41 PM
Youth of the Mark Points: 69 Posts: 20 Joined: 05/Nov/2005
Sorry about that. I got it from The Silmarillion. More specifically the second chapter of the Quenta Silmarillion. This comes after Aulë crafted the dwarves.
Kaulargorn 17/Jun/2006 at 03:18 AM
Messenger of Minas Tirith Points: 938 Posts: 149 Joined: 30/May/2006
In Silmarillion it is referred with certainty only about elves’ afterlife. Their spirits go to the houses of Mandos. For the others including Ents,human,dwarves it lies uknown but since the elves began waking the trees the ents could have a share in elves’ fate and since their acts helped at the destruction of the Ring they could possibly gain the gift of going to Aman.
fewes7 17/Jun/2006 at 10:17 AM
Herald of Imladris Points: 225 Posts: 57 Joined: 10/May/2006
My thought is that it was Yahawa one of the valar who was worried about the trees of the forest being under the dominion of the children of Eru. So she created the shepeards of trees she tells Aule to be carfull not to awaken the anger in the forest.
Elenmakil 17/Jun/2006 at 02:07 PM
Scout of Lothlorien Points: 68 Posts: 8 Joined: 10/Jun/2006

I believe the answer is very simple: the Ents are constrained, like trees, to dwell with the land upon which they were grown. This idea began to dawn on me when I read this quote:

But Galadriel said, ’Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!’  (Many Partings, RotK)

In the first section of bold text it is clear that Galadriel references the lost land of Beleriand. She goes on to mention, in the second section of bold text, the "willow-meads" of Tasarinan, which is another name for the wood of Nan Tathren, located just north of the Mouths of Sirion. In my mind I immediately connected the ’lifting up’ with the Dagor Dagorath, the prophesized "Final Battle." There isn’t a lot on the Dagor Dagorath in Tolkien’s books, but from the references in The Shaping of MIddle Earth and The Book of Lost Tales, it is clear at least that the Dagorath is the end of the world as its inhabitants know it. This does not mean that the world will cease to exist, simply that it will changed immensly. Two prominent quotes seem to support this.

Then Fëanor shall bear the Three and yield their fire to rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. (The Shaping of Middle Earth)

"Then their[the Dwarves] part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle." (Of Aule and Yavanna, the Silmarillion)

Both of these quotes show that Tolkien envisioned a kind of "new beginning" after the last battle. He writes of light "going out across the world", and "remaking" Arda. Now is where we are forced to leave the stone-cold facts and begin speculating. I have done my fair share of this, and the following is my conclusion.

I believe that after the Last Battle, the world is remade as it was meant to be before the malice of Melkor corrupted it. This would mean that Beleriand would be remade as it was meant to be, and that Valinor would be "re-attached" to Ea and reside within its earthly bounds. I would like for a moment to reference the first quote in my post. In the third bold section of text Galadriel mentions a "Spring."  I believe that this Spring references the new beginning of the world after Melkor is destroyed. The return of the world to its intended state(i.e. Valinor not being seperated from the world) would allow Galadriel to travel back to Beleriand and meet Fangorn once again.

NOW, to tie all this in with topic of Ents.

If this is true, then the Ents will simply dwell in Middle Earth until the End, after which they will live in the "new" world, which, without Melkor around, would indeed be an eathly paradise for them.

elfinqa 18/Jun/2006 at 05:54 AM
Huorn of Fangorn Points: 477 Posts: 38 Joined: 01/May/2006
One thing I was thinking about was, that what would the Ents do in the beginning of the fourth age? Ending the Third age there came the era of Men, and it was said in the Silmarillion:

"When the childran awake, then the thought of Yawanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power and while the Secondborn are young."

Would all the ents just become tree-ish? Would they die? I don’t think that they will dwell in ME till the Last Battle, because of Men.

In my opinion, as they were "spirits from afar", they could reach the Undying lands. Or go anywhere else, but that only if they lose their entish form. I can hardly imagine some of the ents sailing on a ship to the West.
mini_1101 18/Jun/2006 at 06:33 AM
Banned Points: 181 Posts: 1 Joined: 18/Jun/2006

i think they can, because of the elvish poem, also because i would have thought that yavanna would support them. considering the ents are a considerable part of the war of the ring, they would be rewarded. unless, there is the possibility that they could find some part of doriath, from beleriand, though that is unlikely. When ents and entwives die, they go into the earth

Mithrandír 18/Jun/2006 at 11:38 PM
Linguist of Lothlorien Points: 3280 Posts: 3291 Joined: 13/Mar/2006
Together we will take the road that leads into the West, And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest."

Treebeard also mentions "We believe that we may meet again in a time to come, and perhaps we shall find somewhere a land where we can live together and both be content. But it is foreboded that that will only be when we have lost all that we now have."

umm yes this is quite a good topic.but how whould Ents manage to get into a boat?their enourmous!

and some of you are saying that they went back into the earth like the Entwives.mmmmmm.strange.

have to think on this one,yes.

lotp 19/Jun/2006 at 07:21 AM
Gardener of Lothlorien Points: 210 Posts: 13 Joined: 18/Jun/2006
no, because trees are long-lived, but not immortal. Since ents are like trees, then they can both be destroyed and die naturally, but I wouldn’t be suprised if they could go to Valinor.. 
Aki Kodomorashi 22/Jun/2006 at 12:49 AM
Archer of Imladris Points: 445 Posts: 200 Joined: 08/Sep/2003
Pretty much all living creatures can go into the west (There have been cases of elves and hobbits going) so I don’t see why an Ent can’t. All they have to do is build a giant Grey ship and load everyone but Captain Treebeard and his Scurvy Elves into the cargo hold (sorry bout the last part.... i had to though...)Its true though, that if Ents die, they can go to Valinor. As Gandalf said to Pippin "Goes to the west, Everyone does, young Padawan" (Or something like that)
Endril 23/Jun/2006 at 01:16 PM
Healer of Imladris Points: 9193 Posts: 9362 Joined: 15/Jan/2006
Watching all that is written here I wonder, all creatures that die in Middle Earth including animals go to Valinor or just elves, dwarfs, men and the known races go there? And as for the ents they will shure make larger ships for them if they were to go to Valinor.
Ecthelion Anor 03/Aug/2006 at 07:33 AM
Labourer of Minas Tirith Points: 132 Posts: 73 Joined: 31/Jul/2006
I think it would be possible for the Ents to go to Valinor though not in the same way the Elves do. I don’t think they would go on the ships because not more than one could go on one boat. I think the way they would get there by floating on the water because they are made of wood.
skorziks 14/Sep/2006 at 11:51 AM
Savant of Isengard Points: 462 Posts: 42 Joined: 29/Jul/2005
Yavanna was allowed to put forth spirits into trees mainly for her fear of what Aule’s dwarves would do to trees, and not so much as to what elves or men would do. In the end, orcs probably proved to be more hated by the ents then the dwarves. This conversation between Aule and Yavanna is definitely not one of their most loving moments together. When Yavanna complains to Aule that his dwarves are going to cause much destruction to her beloved trees, Aule simply replies, "They will have need of wood".  lol.
Obsidian 14/Sep/2006 at 09:53 PM
Pilgrim of Isengard Points: 1896 Posts: 1839 Joined: 02/Mar/2006
Yavanna must have someway of transporting the ents to Valinor if she wishes it. It might be her who brought the entwives to Valinor to prevent them from expereincing harm from the chaos and perils in Middle-Earth at that time. She is a Valar, she might be able to magically transport them or get another Valar to help. And personally I don’t think Yavanna and Aule make a good couple. Trees and axe-bearers: lol.
Angmar Warlock 16/Sep/2006 at 07:04 AM
Savant of Isengard Points: 538 Posts: 44 Joined: 03/Sep/2006
What an excellent topic, thinking up this question deserves bonus points.  I have read all the threads, of which there is a great number and have been thoroughly entertained for a couple of hours
great earendil 21/Sep/2006 at 05:53 AM
Banned Points: 822 Posts: 170 Joined: 21/Sep/2006
To go to the undying lands i.e valinor, one of the major criterion is to be an immortal.....well it is a rule that only immortals enter valinor. and yea, one of the major missbeliefs that many people have, including me(now i know better)that anybody living in the undying lands become undying...but it is not so, the name of the land comes beacuse all the people that live there are immortal. yeah i know there are some exceptions......

1) earendil - but don’t forget that mandos objected tyo his setting foot upon valinor and it was only through the efforts of ulmo was manwe moved and convinced to pardon them and give him the "half elven" choice....

2) elwing - daughter of dior and nimloth and earendil’s wife......she too was pardoned by the valar.
              coming to the third age, only four mortals have went to valinor......samwise gamgee, frodo baggins, bilbo baggins and gimli, son of gloin. while the first three were ring bearers , hence the special concession but for gimli, it is possible that by the pleadings of galadriel (in whose favour gimli is very high) could have aided and also his contribution to the fall of sauron through his part in the fellowship must have caused the valar to make special concession for him, making him the first dwarf to enter the blessed realm.

Now coming to the main point, can ents go to valinor...the answer is quite simple, since the ents arn’t immortal, they can’t and won’t. while we all know that the ents had very very long lives, it’s nowhere mentioned that they were immortal. please correct me if i am wrong about the ents mortality, but as i see things, they are immortal and hence valinor is out of bounds to them.
great earendil 21/Sep/2006 at 05:55 AM
Banned Points: 822 Posts: 170 Joined: 21/Sep/2006
folks, the topic of ents mortality, whether they are mortal or immortal is deeply troubling me, hence i am starting a new thread on the topic.
Forodluin 22/Sep/2006 at 12:06 PM
Adept of Isengard Points: 288 Posts: 5 Joined: 22/Sep/2006

As Great Earendil and Elenmakil suggested above, the key criterion appears to be obtaining permission from the Valar (retrospectively or in advance) - immortal or not, Ents seem to have been deigned residents of Middle Earth (since their incarnation as Ents, at least) and would presumably require permission from the Valar collectively to voyage (y whatever means) to Valinor.

Using Occam’s razor, the simplest outcome would appear to be that the Ents are bound to Middle-Earth at least until the re-making of Arda and I suspect the quote "Together we will take the road that leads into the West, And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest."  is more likely to refer to a remade Beleriand than a voyage to Valinor...

Elrond Half-Elven 06/Nov/2006 at 01:02 AM
Herald of Imladris Points: 275 Posts: 22 Joined: 06/Nov/2006

Taking into consideration that several races who are a lot less "clued-up" about a place such as Aman (for example, Hobbits) have indeed made the journey to the Uttermost West, I would think it indeed possible for Ents themselves to go to Valinor.

i think this is a good point

Lady Aikári 07/Nov/2006 at 12:50 AM
Gwaihir Points: 22498 Posts: 17912 Joined: 24/Jun/2004

I have never come across something in the books of Tolkien that Ents would go to Valinor. The land Treebeard refers to is what I believe the land of Tasarinan, what will be there when all of Middle Earth is lost. There they would meet again...

Isindil 10/Nov/2006 at 09:10 AM
Messenger of Minas Tirith Points: 749 Posts: 531 Joined: 23/Feb/2004
In the Letters of Tolkien, He clearly states that "There will be no reunion" for the Ents and Entwives. He doesn’t give a clear reason for this, however it is assumed that the Entwives have come to some untimely end.


And sure an Ent could get to Valinor, if the Elves chopped one up and made a boat out of it ...just kidding
dragusa 26/Nov/2006 at 06:43 AM
Sapling of Fangorn Points: 83 Posts: 14 Joined: 20/Jun/2006
I believe that the Ents could not possibly go to Valinor as Frodo says to Bilbo near the end of the return of the King: "the eves have accorded you a great honour... a place on the last ship to leave Middle earth." As far as my knowledge goes... i don’t think the Ents were on any of those ships...  were they?    i’m a bit confused.. any way. I don’t think they could go.
Bearamir 29/Nov/2006 at 07:17 PM
Emeritus Points: 16276 Posts: 16742 Joined: 21/Sep/2008

Ladies & Gentlemen:  While this thread had great potential on the onset, the discussion appears to be reaching "diminishing marginal returns" in the areas of creativity and effort.  I still think this is an interesting, topic, however, so I am going to transfer it back to it’s place of origin:  People and Races.

My profound thanks to everyone for their contributions.

KingODuckingham 29/Nov/2006 at 10:11 PM
Grey Counsellor of Isengard Points: 15053 Posts: 15390 Joined: 27/Aug/2006
Why exactly would Ents want or need to go to Valinor? Their whole purpose in existence is to care for the trees of ME, that’s why Yavanna created them. I admit that there are trees in Valinor, but they don’t need protection from things like dwarves there. The Ents are also spirits, not actually awakened beings like the other races, so I don’t think they would get the urge to travel west the way elves or even men have. After all, they were already there, it would be like Gandalf wanting to go back to Valinor before his mission in ME was complete. I don’t see any reason why they would be forbidden from Valinor, but I just don’t see the necessity or desire for them to travel there.
Migstyx 03/Dec/2006 at 01:21 AM
Banned Points: 173 Posts: 4 Joined: 02/Dec/2006
In my opinion, i think ent cant go to valinor because they are trees that infused with spirits only not angels. Valinor is just for angels like Manwe, Aule, Orome, Yavanna and the rest of Aratar, Maiar and Valar. I think if ent want to request something, maybe they can send thier messenger to valinor only. This id just what i think. True or not i do not know.
Wilibald Bumble 04/Dec/2006 at 03:54 PM
New Soul Points: 647 Posts: 197 Joined: 03/Dec/2006

Ents would not leave Valinor. For it is the Elves that gave them the ability to walk and talk. There are fascinating gardens in Valinor which Yavanna created but as for the Ents, I think the Elves were their teachers and I don’t think the Elves would go to Valinor.

Wilibald Bumble at your service and your family’s

Qtpie 04/Dec/2006 at 06:22 PM
Commander of Mordor Points: 22280 Posts: 12880 Joined: 17/Nov/2005
Wilibald: Ents were never in Valinor in the first place. Most of the Elves would go to Valinor. The ones that stayed in Middle-earth were forgotten. Those on Middle-earth would be tired of the world and pass to the West. Or if they are slain, then their souls would go to the Halls of Mandos where they await reincarnation in Aman. The Ents also already knew how to walk, it is just the Elves teaching them how to talk.
Galandil 05/Dec/2006 at 05:53 AM
Horse-lord of the Mark Points: 1362 Posts: 1844 Joined: 04/Sep/2003
KingODuckingham mentioned that the ents would stay because that’s there duty (just as Gandalf stayed till his was complete). And I agree, while the ents still have their duties, they will stay (either because they’re becoming tree-ish or because they actually are doing their duty like Treebeard). But perhaps, once it is all complete far from the time of LotR, they would have a choice and some might go to Valinor and some might not, depending of course on what the world would be like then.
First Age 05/Dec/2006 at 07:10 AM
Master of Isengard Points: 263 Posts: 38 Joined: 08/Nov/2006
I really doubt that any ent would want to got to Valinor. To what end would they want to go? All they have to live for is already in Middle Earth and indeed in would seem in Fangorn and Isengard. Maybe it is because of their ’duty’ but it seems to me that the ents don’t have a reason to want to leave Middle Earth.
Galandil 05/Dec/2006 at 10:04 AM
Horse-lord of the Mark Points: 1362 Posts: 1844 Joined: 04/Sep/2003
Well, say the forests all get destroyed in the end or something--why then would they stay in Middle Earth? Once their duty is done (either with the above - trees being dead - or with the forests not needing them), why would they not go to other forests, nicer forests where they don’t have to deal with angered trees? Or perhaps, in an alternative, they would look for/find the entwives because then they could be happier and there would be entlings.
Mithrandír 05/Dec/2006 at 01:46 PM
Linguist of Lothlorien Points: 3280 Posts: 3291 Joined: 13/Mar/2006
" As far as my knowledge goes... i don’t think the Ents were on any of those ships... were they?
oh please, dont bother me with this one: wasn’t a similar thread like this in advanced lore...
Galandil 05/Dec/2006 at 02:10 PM
Horse-lord of the Mark Points: 1362 Posts: 1844 Joined: 04/Sep/2003
Many elves had not left at the end of LotR, though. And I’m sure that if they wanted to go to Valinor, they would be able to somehow. And there wouldn’t be any ents yet, as at the end of LotR, they were still busy.

However, I’m not sure if this topic has been in advanced lore.
Stiffler Vaneyar 05/Dec/2006 at 09:22 PM
Potentate of Isengard Points: 3655 Posts: 6093 Joined: 06/Jan/2005

Well don’t forget. Even though Frodo did say that Bilbo was on the last boat to leave ME, it wasn’t. Legolas and Gimli went ff from ME in a boat together years after  Bilbo and Frodo did. I believe that if the Ents wanted to go by boat, they definitly could.

But then why? As Kingo said, and I agree. Ents were created to care for the Trees and Olvar (plants) of Middle Earth. They wouldn’t just leave what they were without careful consideration first. And we all know how their ’careful consideration’ goes.

Angdring 14/Dec/2006 at 11:49 AM
New Soul Points: 343 Posts: 162 Joined: 24/May/2008

I know that the Movie said the Elves taught the Ents to walk and talk .  But there is another story about this . The Silmarillion , on page 41 ,  tells us that  before the Elves awoke , Yavanna was afraid that her beloved trees who could not run away , as the animals could , would suffer from Aule’s children and their axes. so she petitioned Manwe for help.   Manwe said that in the mountains the Eagles would hear those who call upon  ( the gods)  "But in the forest shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees "   Yavanna told Aule in effect , Let your kids beware , for there’s a power in the forest , whose rath they arouse , at their peril. Now the Elves may have taught the Ents to talk , but I don’t remember reading that anywhere.

Qtpie 14/Dec/2006 at 08:04 PM
Commander of Mordor Points: 22280 Posts: 12880 Joined: 17/Nov/2005
To solidify what you were saying Angdring, the Elves did indeed teach the Ents how to talk.

’Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk.’ The Two Towers: Treebeard

Treebeard acknowledges that it was the Elves who taught them how to talk, hence the quote.
Vugar 14/Dec/2006 at 08:35 PM
Chieftain of Mordor Points: 8170 Posts: 5398 Joined: 01/Jun/2004

Táragolloion, I believe that quote merely addresses the subject that is found within, namely the trees and not Ents.  Treebeard had just been talking to Merry and Pippin about the shepherd/sheep relationship between Ents and trees, and it seems to me likely that is what he refers to.  The Elves were responsible for kindling a desire of speech in the Ents, but the latter was responsible for the language of their devising.

"They were known to the Eldar in ancient days, and to the Eldar indeed the Ents ascribed not their own language but the desire for speech." (Of Other Races: Ents, Appendix F)

Qtpie 14/Dec/2006 at 08:37 PM
Commander of Mordor Points: 22280 Posts: 12880 Joined: 17/Nov/2005
Ah, ok thanks Achaius.
Angdring 15/Dec/2006 at 05:26 AM
New Soul Points: 343 Posts: 162 Joined: 24/May/2008

Achaius , and Taragolloion , I’m allways pleasantly surprized at the amount of detail we can flesh out on these subjects during these discussions ..    

Can Ents go to  Valinor ? It seems to me, that it was Eru’s plan from the start , that Elves should migrate West and all live in Valinor.  I don’t think he meant that for any of the other races  ,( Ringbearers , were special cases )   It dosen’t seem to me ,that the Ents would be welcome , and not the Dwarves ,  or the Men .   But this is not to say that  the Ent’s spirits aren’t treated the same as men’s .  Not that I pretend to know the mind of Illuvatar .

 

Qtpie 15/Dec/2006 at 05:13 PM
Commander of Mordor Points: 22280 Posts: 12880 Joined: 17/Nov/2005
Well actually the Valar had always meant the Elves to live with them.

’’But for the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid deceits of the starlit dusk; and the were filled moreover with the love of the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship.’ The Silmarillion: Of the Coming of the Elves

The Valar intended for the Elves to dwell in Valinor with them, both for their companionship and to protect them. But some Elves never made it to Valinor or left Valinor, so the Elves who have never set foot on the Blessed Lands were allowed to sail West and live in Valinor. The Men shared a different fate, since they had to leave the world whereas the Elves were bound to it.

’But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world;...’ The Silmarillion: Of the Beginning of Days

Vugar 15/Dec/2006 at 06:58 PM
Chieftain of Mordor Points: 8170 Posts: 5398 Joined: 01/Jun/2004

At least in one of his letters (#338), Tolkien did seem to consider the possibility that the Ents and Entwives may have expectations of an ultimate fate that would be similar to that of the Elves (or even hoped for a fate similar to Men).

"But I think in Vol. II pp. 80-81¹ it is plain that there would be for Ents no re-union in ’history’ — but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some ’earthly paradise’ until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were ’not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory.’....

¹ The song of the Ent and Entwife in the chapter ’Treebeard’."

A reunion in an ’earthly paradise’ outside ’history’ suggests a sojourn within Aman, and if so then a return to incarnate existence within Aman.  Although the final passage suggests that the Ents cherised the hope that they were not bound only to the world and would continue after the ’end of the world’ like the fëar of Men.

Naduil 16/Dec/2006 at 06:36 AM
Gardener of Lothlorien Points: 182 Posts: 753 Joined: 02/Dec/2006
Here’s an idea. (One of many). Maybe they cut the ents down and made them into boats? Makes sense. Cruel though it would be cutting down the ents and making them into boats would let the elves get decent boats and let the ents get to valinor. Everyones a winner. Besides that’s the only way. Ents are to big otherwise.
Qtpie 16/Dec/2006 at 09:23 AM
Commander of Mordor Points: 22280 Posts: 12880 Joined: 17/Nov/2005
Naduil: For one thing, I seriously doubt that Elves would cut down Ents just to make a boat to sail to Valinor. There were other sources of wood in Middle-earth that they could’ve used. If given the choice I’m sure the Elves wouldn’t cut down Ents for their boats. Also if you cut an Ent into pieces to build a boat I’m pretty sure that the Ent would be dead and his fea would be in the Halls of Mandos or wandering around Middle-earth.
Nav 16/Dec/2006 at 08:32 PM
Weathered Ent of Fangorn Points: 5671 Posts: 6218 Joined: 10/Dec/2005

Naduil, thanks for chopping me down. I appreciate it.

KingODuckingham 16/Dec/2006 at 09:06 PM
Grey Counsellor of Isengard Points: 15053 Posts: 15390 Joined: 27/Aug/2006
First of all, I highly doubt that Ents would retain the consciousness they need to enjoy Valinor in boat form. They would be what is commonly called dead.

Secondly, elves would never kill ents to make boats out of them. They would not show such cruelty.

Thirdly, it would take a heck of alot of elves to chop up an Ent into shipwood, particulary if the Ent didn’t want to be. Pippin (or maybe Merry?) said it took many axe-hits to seriously wound an Ent.
Qtpie 16/Dec/2006 at 10:16 PM
Commander of Mordor Points: 22280 Posts: 12880 Joined: 17/Nov/2005
Here’s the quote KoD is referring to:

’It takes a very heavy axe-stroke to wound them seriously They don’t like axes. But there would have to be a great many axe-men to one Ent:...’ The Two Towers: Flotsam and Jetsam

Since it is so tough to take down an Ent, the Elves would’ve been better off hacking down normal trees, instead of chopping up an Ent. It would require way more work, than making a boat from just normal wood.
Battlehamster 17/Dec/2006 at 01:14 PM
Horse-lord of the Mark Points: 1401 Posts: 515 Joined: 10/Nov/2006

What an amusing mental image that brings, though.  I can just see it:

"Take you to Valinor?  Of course we can *cough* take you to Valinor.  So if you’ll just come over this way, no of course that’s not a big blade, that’s just our, um, sail, that’s um, metal.  Right.  ’Cause now the Earth is round, so-" Crunch.

Seriously, though, I’d have to second the opinions of those who say that the Ents were made to guard the trees of Middle-earth.  Though I suppose they probably still need wood in Valinor...

Kaulargorn 18/Dec/2006 at 11:35 PM
Messenger of Minas Tirith Points: 938 Posts: 149 Joined: 30/May/2006
I think it should a special Ent to be granted that honor like with the the other races. Ents are considered to be a race, they are not like Huorn, awaken by the elves, the Ents existed before the Firstborn, so why not? However it sounds a bit weird for an Ent to be at Valinor.
Eorl Boarhelm 19/Dec/2006 at 04:14 AM
Horse-lord of the Mark Points: 1920 Posts: 2348 Joined: 27/Jul/2004
Why is there all this talk of chopping down Ents to make shipwood?

Will somebody please explain to me how Ents are a source of wood? They are not made of bark or wood, and neither do they look like trees, except that they vaguely remind you of a certain type of tree (probably the species they guard). They have proper hands, feet, and humanoid bodies. Treebeard, in fact, has seven toes. And they certainly do not have roots and branches. The movie representation of the ents is horribly wrong, as bad as the balrog. As for those who go treeish, there is no reason to believe that they grow bark, or any such plant parts.
Magradhaid 28/Dec/2006 at 03:02 PM
Imp of Umbar Points: 7957 Posts: 8204 Joined: 13/Sep/2008

What of the end of Treebeard’s song, i.e. "Together we will take the road that leads into the West, And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest!" ? This seems to go along with Achaius’ quote from the Letters, though I do not know how their hröar could be transported! As they were fëar, maybe only their spirits would go to Aman? Though the separation of body and spirit would constitute ’death’, though they might be incarnated again in Aman, as were certain Elves. However, this is of course speculation.