Morgoth and the Void

Archive Home > Advanced Lore
EhtelŽ VŪriŽ 05/Aug/2006 at 10:59 AM
Messenger of Minas Tirith Points: 950 Posts: 912 Joined: 21/Oct/2004

I stumbled across this quote in Allkabeth and had a question. How could Morgoth get out of the Void? 

"But Manwe put forth Morgoth and shut him beyond the World in the Void that is without; and he cannot himself return agin into the World; present and visible; while the Lords of the West are still enthroned" The Sil, pg.310 

So my questions are that first, how could he get out of the Void even if the Valar had fallen? He was still locked in the Void, or does the Void itself have a relationship with the Valar, so that if the Valar were somehow were releived of being the Lords of the Middle Earth, then the Void would collapse and Morgoth would rule the world, with Sauron at his right hand. My second question: what would Morgoth try to do after he enslaved the whole world to his will, or try to destroy Eru himself? But wouldn’t that disrupt the Music of the Ainur, and thereby make the whole Middle-Earth nothing. And finally, if this would be the case, then wouldn’t there be a Middle Earth before this, since the origin of the Void was actually a previous "Middle Earth" Oh, and what is the origin of the Void??  Is Eru actually the last Morgoth?

Phil_d_one 05/Aug/2006 at 11:13 AM
Shipwright of Umbar Points: 13181 Posts: 12667 Joined: 14/Jan/2004
A lot of questions. The best way to answer them all is to refer to the Second Prophecy of Mandos, that of the Dagor Dagorath as described in HoME IV.

As for how Melkor could get out of the Void, it is apparantly something that is within his power -- since he does do it. However, he does first regain a lot of his former power, and it is suggested that Sauron would aid Melkor in his escape (an earlier version of the Dagor Dagorath has Tevildo, a precursor to Sauron, gnawing Melko’s bonds). So really the best answer that can be given is that he can, unhelpful as that must sound. It isn’t tied to the fall of the Valar so much as the neccessary time elapsed -- the Dagor Dagorath occurs so far in the future that the Valar (while still ruling Arda, which itself proves that the quote you provide is not literal) are themselves weary of the world. So no, there was no such link between the Valar and the Void.

what would Morgoth try to do after he enslaved the whole world to his will, or try to destroy Eru himself? He would destroy it, not enslave it. Morgoth differed from Sauron in that while Sauron wished to dominate, Morgoth wished only to destroy -- he was clearly a nihilist. He couldn’t possibly destroy Eru, first and foremost because of the huge gulf in power between the two (Melkor was infantesimaly less powerful than Eru even before he squandered most of his power in the Marring of Arda), but also because of a spatial gulf. Eru doesn’t enter Ea, and Melkor cannot leave it.

But wouldn’t that disrupt the Music of the Ainur, and thereby make the whole Middle-Earth nothing. And finally, if this would be the case, then wouldn’t there be a Middle Earth before this, since the origin of the Void was actually a previous "Middle Earth"  No because it is a logical impossibility. The two cannot meet: no problems are incurred if the unstoppable force never meets an immovable object. And even if they could (which they can’t), Melkor simply could not destroy Eru. And therefore your theory falls through because this isn’t the case.

Oh, and what is the origin of the Void??  Is Eru actually the last Morgoth? Since Eru came first, it is logical that Eru created the Void. And since Eru came first, it is also logical that he was not the last Morgoth (since there was nothing before him)

Maiarian Man 05/Aug/2006 at 11:19 AM
Steward of Isengard Points: 9003 Posts: 10968 Joined: 10/Mar/2002
Tolkien wasn’t actually talking about the Void, as he tells us in HoME X.  When Morgoth is cast out from the world,  he is thrust through the door of the night.  But what lies outside the door of night is not the Void, but the darkness of Ea.  As Tolkien says, it must be the case that Morgoth is only cast out of Arda, not of Ea, as that would take the intervention of Eru (and it would also require Eru’s intervention to let Morgoth back into Ea).  Tolkien notes that he could leave the text as written, and attribute the mistake as belonging to those imaginary men who actually wrote the text.  For, as he says, men often confuse the dark space of Ea with the Void.
Tķrin 05/Aug/2006 at 11:31 AM
Politician of Umbar Points: 16612 Posts: 23336 Joined: 14/Sep/2003
That is a somewhat confusing term. In later writings on the matter (contained in HoMe X: Morgoth’s Ring), we are told that while the exact or proper reading of this sentance (based on the words used) is indeed how you read it: that Morgoth was put out of Time and Space; it may be an inaccuracy, due likely to the confusion of Elves and Men with the concept of Nothingness - the Void - and the empty spaces in Ea - outer space to use a more recognizted term.

The latter can be done by the Valar alone, but the former requires an act of Eru to accomplish; and thus it would follow that it must be by an act of Eru that Morgoth would be able to return to Ea in the End for the Dagor Dagoroth. Do you think Eru would purposefully loose Morgoth on the world? I do not, and hence I read the passage as Morgoth being thrust into Outer Space - the Solar System - as opposed to the Void. He would be unable to return because he would be rebuilding himself and his power until such a time as he felt strong enough to challenge the Valar once again.

As to your second question:
What would Morgoth try to do after he enslaved the whole world to his will, or try to destroy Eru himself? But wouldn’t that disrupt the Music of the Ainur, and thereby make the whole Middle-Earth nothing?

This question is based on the assumption that Morgoth would be able to enslave the whole world. He would not be able to. In the stories of the Dagor Dagoroth, when Melkor returns and the Final battle is fought, Arda is brooken and the Silmarilli are recovered, but Morgoth is defeated, he is not victorious. The world is then remade (And the Dwarves believe that they aid Aule in remaking the world, unless my memory is failing).

Finally, Eru is not some previous Morgoth. Your third question rests on the assumption that you second would indeed occur. Just as the second is founded on something that would not happen. There is no evidence in the least for a previous Middle-earth, only a second one, after the Dagor Dagoroth.

However, assume for a minute that Eru is indeed the previous Melkor of a previous Middle-earth. Eru creates life. Melkor cannot create life, only Eru can. Thus, if Eru is the previous Melkor, we have a being that cannot life, creating life. It is an illogical result. Yours was the case of the Slippery Slope, I believe.
Tķrin 05/Aug/2006 at 11:44 AM
Politician of Umbar Points: 16612 Posts: 23336 Joined: 14/Sep/2003
Simuls with Phil and MM.

Question to MM, however. My post was a bit delayed past yours and Phil’s because I went to check Myths Transformed before posting, and the way Tolkien wrote seems to fall short of saying that the passage quoted by EhtelŽ VŪriŽ is indeed referring to outer space/solar system as opposed to the Void. It seems logically pointing in that direction (what with the mention of it needing to be an act of Eru, and the note about the confusion of Men and Elves regarding the Void vs the solar system), but I’m not fully comfortable saying that it cannot actually be literally referring to the Void itself. Is this just my being overly cautious, or is there some more info lending more weight to the "misunderstanding of men" reading?

Phil: Well, technically Morgoth and Eru could meet - but Morgoth could not force such an encounter.
Maiarian Man 05/Aug/2006 at 11:55 AM
Steward of Isengard Points: 9003 Posts: 10968 Joined: 10/Mar/2002
Turin - I  didn’t mean to imply that this passage from the Silmarilliion was actually referring just to outer space.  The text as written refers to the Void.  Tolkien seems to have two opinions on rectifying this problem in the text.  Either it needs to be changed because it is wrong--Melkor can’t possibly be cast into the Void.  Or he can leave the text as written, but attribute the mistake to the imaginary men who wrote the text.  If the latter is the case, it would not be clear whether the imaginary author is actually intending to refer to the Void (in which case he is mistaken) or intending to refer to Outer Space (in which case he is calling this by the wrong name).
Tķrin 05/Aug/2006 at 12:10 PM
Politician of Umbar Points: 16612 Posts: 23336 Joined: 14/Sep/2003

Well, I asked that because HoMe X states:

"We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ea altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccuratly* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.

* [footnote to the text] Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the ’Void’, as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ea, with the conception of vast spaces within Ea, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled ’Kingdom of Arda’ (which we should probably call the Solar System)

(Morgoth’s Ring, Myths Transformed, Text VII)

I decided to quote the full part just for reference, I am really referring primarily to the first part of this quote.

I just seems to read like Morgoth could indeed be thrust into the Void itself - just that it would take intervention by Eru, and that the Valar wouldn’t really have to ask for that, but merely send Morgoth ut and Eru implicitly put Morgoth into the Void without conferring with the Valar. As I said in my first post, I don’t think Eru would allow Morgoth to return, and so I don’t think that Eru would remove Morgoth from Ea.   

I understand the two cases you lay out about the imaginary author being mistaken either about the place or the name, but the way that the above passage is written, I’m not yet fully comfortable saying that Melkor could not have been put into the actual Void.
dopeydan 05/Aug/2006 at 12:23 PM
New Soul Points: 40 Posts: 2 Joined: 03/Aug/2006
Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought Morgoth was part of Eru’s design representing excess but that his excess was part of the creation of Arda. That much is said in the ainulindale, ’music in my despite’ and all that. Thus Melkor and eru are one as much as manwe and eru are one. So in a way eru is Melkor but not a Melkor as such.
Maiarian Man 05/Aug/2006 at 01:43 PM
Steward of Isengard Points: 9003 Posts: 10968 Joined: 10/Mar/2002

Turin - your reading seems plausible.   So itís probably not fair to say that Morgoth was certainly not thrust into the void.  However, when Tolkien writes "That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ea" he is commenting upon what the text as written literally indicates happened.  He is, in essence, reflecting upon the text as he has writtten it and realizing that what he (or really the author) has said doesnít really work.  In other words, he is thinking: okay, what the Silmarillion says indicates that Morgoth has been thrust outside Ea,  but wait a minute, that would mean that Eru would have to have intervened.  That doesnít seem likely--the Silmarillion author must be mistaking himself.

Dopeydan - there’s no indication that Eru planned Melkor’s discord.  Just that nothing ultimately can happen against Eru’s plans.  I’ll leave it unsaid why this is more a true statement than a contradictory one.

Tķrin 05/Aug/2006 at 01:56 PM
Politician of Umbar Points: 16612 Posts: 23336 Joined: 14/Sep/2003
Ahhh, a veyr good point, MM, I had not thought of it in that sense. Thanks!
Phil_d_one 06/Aug/2006 at 02:26 AM
Shipwright of Umbar Points: 13181 Posts: 12667 Joined: 14/Jan/2004
Isilduror 06/Aug/2006 at 08:31 AM
Labourer of Minas Tirith Points: 229 Posts: 13 Joined: 06/Aug/2006

If I may add another question into the mix; this is my first post on these forums, and I have only really just started reading the HoME books and really delving deep into the lore of the story, so apologies if this can be answered simply by reading the remaining books, but, if I’m not entirely mistaken, Eru was plainly conceived in the mind of JRRT as a being comparable to a ’God’  of some kind, perhaps the one of Christianity, as he was most probably exposed to that religion over all others in his time.

With this in mind, did he create Eru with the idea that he also would be omniscient/omnipotent? And if the answer to that question is yes, any omniscient/omnipotent being would presumably see in hindsight that a creation of something like Melkor would create such a turbulence, and in turn never bring any ’Melkor’ like Ainur into existence.

So, if Eru is indeed considered to have all knowledge and all power, then he should have known how Melkor would have affected his creation/music.

Phil_d_one 06/Aug/2006 at 08:44 AM
Shipwright of Umbar Points: 13181 Posts: 12667 Joined: 14/Jan/2004
Isilduror: Welcome to the Plaza

Actually your question is hard in that it touches upon one of the most fundamental questions of any religion or set of beliefs. How can a being be omnipotent, omniscient, and yet omnibenevolent in light of the existence of evil. If Eru is omniscient, then he knew exactly what Melkor would do: so was he willing to stop him, but unable? If so then he is not omnipotent. Or was he able to stop him, but unwilling? Then he is not omnibenevolent. But while it doesn’t answer this most fundamental question, Tolkien does give us somewhat of an answer in the Silmarillion itself.

Then Ilķvatar spoke, and he said: ’Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilķvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’
(The Silmarillion, Ainulindale)

In other words, what Melkor did was actually a part of Eru’s plan: and required for the fulfilment of it. So though Melkor went against the ideal, in the end he was merely serving as a tool by means of which Eru could bring forward even greater things. So yes, Eru did know how the creation of Melkor would affect matters, and yet he chose to create him anyway, and not by mistake, presumably.

Isilduror 06/Aug/2006 at 09:33 AM
Labourer of Minas Tirith Points: 229 Posts: 13 Joined: 06/Aug/2006

Thank you Phil! That adds some clarification to the matter, and yet could be seen to contradict with what Turin said before; that Eru would not wish to ’re-enter’ Melkor into Aman, if indeed he had been sent into the Void.

That being said, there’s only so far you can go when talking about omnipotence and all of those Godly qualities, as there is always the argument that it will all turn out how the ’God’ wished it to.

dopeydan 07/Aug/2006 at 11:20 AM
New Soul Points: 40 Posts: 2 Joined: 03/Aug/2006
MM, i disagree, largely for the reasons above but also as each ainur is an aspect of the mind of Eru, ergo in conceiving Melkor the Eru must have conceived/planned his discord. Maybe not the specifics but the discord itself.
Lord of the Rings 07/Aug/2006 at 12:00 PM
Mandos Points: 8968 Posts: 7368 Joined: 03/Dec/2005
dopeydan, it need not be the case that each Ainu is just one aspect of Eru. They are the offspring of his thought, not just his thought. They had free will. Phil handles the subtleties of trying to balance the [perceived] gap between reality and envisioned perfection when talking about a being such as Eru.

But I see it as coming down, more or less, to this: Eru is not responsible directly for Melkor’s actions. He didn’t plan to have Melkor rebel. Eru would always, seemingly, rather let people (used in the absolute broadest sense here) do as they would, and then make the best of what happened than order all things to his will in an instant. I don’t know why- but then, I’m not omniscient.
Bearamir 07/Aug/2006 at 12:31 PM
Emeritus Points: 16276 Posts: 16742 Joined: 21/Sep/2008
Ladies & Gentlemen:  This thread has been nominated for transfer to Ad Lore.  From what I can see, this discussion definately has the potential to generate some interesting without further ado:  Please prepare for move to Ad Lore. 
Maiarian Man 07/Aug/2006 at 03:21 PM
Steward of Isengard Points: 9003 Posts: 10968 Joined: 10/Mar/2002

Bear - Thanks

Dopeydan - Okay.  Hereís what we have.  Eru creates the Valar.  Melkor causes discord.  Everything happens according to Eruís Plans.  Therefore, Eru planned Melkorís discord.

Three problems with this.  First, just because everything happens according to Eruís plans does not mean that Eru planned/caused everything that has ever happened.  Weíll take a trivial example.  I read in the newspaper today that it is going to rain in the afternoon.  So I bring an umbrella with me to work in the morning.  When I leave work, it is raining.  The rain falling happened according to my plans.  But I am certainly not the one who set the falling of rain in motion. 

Thatís a pretty easy argument to avoid on your account.  Eru is the source of all things that have been set in motion, by definition.

Second, it might be possible for Eru to set things in motion without planning all of the details.  Kind of like a bit of chaos theory, he just gets things started and things can go whichever way they may.  Determinists will say that if he is the first cause, then he is responsible for everything, so thatís no help.  And even if there really are free creatures in between who get to choose what direction the world takes, we still have the problem that no one is able to break Eruís plans.  So that might not be of much help.

Third, and finally, I ask, when did Eru plan  everything.  Eru exists outside of time.  He did not plan Melkorís discord before it happened, nor did he plan it after it happened.  Everything happens all at once, and yet at no time at all.  You can argue, "If A caused B" and "B caused C" then "A caused C."  But this logic is time-ordered.  Time doesnít exist for Eru, so it remains fundamentally difficult to say he has caused anything--and yet difficult to say that he has not caused anything.  Causal and logical relations become difficult to understand, even contradictive.  I can easily see how my throwing a ball made the ball launch through the air, but it doesnít make sense to say that the ballís being launched through the air was the cause of my throwing it.  But both of these are equally sensible or nonsensible to the world as seen by Eru.  So it doesnít seem contradictive, necessarily, to say that an action was according to Eruís plans even though Eru didnít cause it. 

<Nessa Edit:  MM, it was my pleasure.>

Isilduror 07/Aug/2006 at 04:09 PM
Labourer of Minas Tirith Points: 229 Posts: 13 Joined: 06/Aug/2006

This discussion has lead me to wondering exactly how JRRT pictured Eru. It is never, as far as I am aware, explicitly stated that Eru is in fact ’all powerful’, or indeed ’all knowing’. The furthest Tolkien went, again, as far as I can see, in describing Eru’s power, was perhaps simply the comparisons he drew between Eru, and the Christian God. Which means that the characteristics of Eru that we’re assuming exist only become plausible indirectly, as JRRT didn’t, in any of his published works at least, (although I haven’t read many of the ’Letters’) make a direct comparison between Eru and ’God’, or state anywhere that Eru had ’all power’.

The mere concept of this discussion is hard to handle, as we’re talking about things which none of us can actually comprehend to the fullest, but, if, for argument’s sake, Eru did have omnipotency and omniscience, it comes down to how detailed his plans were in the beginning.

Like MM has stated above, "just because everything happens according to Eru’s plans does not mean that Eru planned/caused everything that has ever happened." The only way we can determine whether Eru knew of the extent of Melkor’s evil is to know how much Eru knew of his own creation(s), and whether he saw everything that would be, or whether he just knew how it would end, and knew nothing of the details inbetween.

Maiarian Man 07/Aug/2006 at 08:10 PM
Steward of Isengard Points: 9003 Posts: 10968 Joined: 10/Mar/2002
Isilduror - I think the most helpful explanation of Eru by Tolkien is this, referring to the Valar: "this is, of course, meant to provide beings of the same order of beauty, power, and majesty as the ’gods’ of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted - well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity" (letter 131).  It’s not the explicit description you want, but it shows that Tolkien did indeed think of Eru as filling the role of the Christian god, while the Valar managed to fill roles similar to those held by Greek and Norse gods.
Isilduror 08/Aug/2006 at 06:20 AM
Labourer of Minas Tirith Points: 229 Posts: 13 Joined: 06/Aug/2006

Reverting back to the original questions, (thanks for the quote about Eru, MM) and the debate about the Void and outer space, is it possible that Tolkien was thinking somewhat of the area of Ea that he created originally, when first conceptualizing the world; the ’Outer Regions’, a.k.a. ’Vilna’, ’Ilwe’ and ’Vaitya’?

It is apparent that much of the content existant in the BoLT prevailed, and was subsequently published as fact in The Silmarillion. Since he took time to talk about these ’areas’ of air in the BoLT, but none of them lasted into The Silmarillion, I was wondering whether these were perhaps the original forms of the area in which Melkor is trapped.

They, especially ’Vaitya’, the outermost layer, seem to fit accordingly with the sort of place the Valar trapped Melkor.

Aragorn- 09/Aug/2006 at 02:28 AM
Mercenary of Minas Tirith Points: 573 Posts: 258 Joined: 18/Nov/2002
Interesting... this just pushes me more into getting HOME...
My opinion on this is that Melkor, being an evil entity, has some kind of ’’connection’’, with the void and can manipulate it, thus easying his escape...

A. Tolkien only translated the frist two ’’volumes’’ in french though... I will have to settle for the original.

Eomer Windu 09/Aug/2006 at 01:31 PM
Banned Points: 188 Posts: 78 Joined: 22/Jun/2006
I think that the void is outer space in middle earth. and that morgoth is trapped there in space where he can do nothing about being trapped until the lords of hte west are dethroned
shadowoflegolas 11/Aug/2006 at 08:49 PM
Herald of Imladris Points: 199 Posts: 176 Joined: 20/Mar/2006

But did this ever happen, though? The Lords of the West being dethroned, and how would that play into Morgoth’s release?  I just don’t understand why the gods would make it possible for Morgoth to EVER be released, after he did everything he did and according to how much evil he had done before.  They had chained him up once and released him and then he repented and then went back to his evil ways. So why would they make it possible for him to ever be released?  Because of all he has done I think he deserves to be trapped in the void for aeons of eternity, in my humble opinion.  Maybe Tolkien was thinking about Satan in the Bible, who at the time near the end is cast into the abyss (or the void) for 1,000 years and then was let loose for a season and deceived many (Book of Revelation) but is eventually cast into the lake of fire.  If Morgoth can find a way out of the void, I don’t think he will reform into a good being. He seems way too far gone now, no one can trust him. I think if he is released, his ultimate demise would follow shortly,

EhtelŽ VŪriŽ 13/Aug/2006 at 07:26 PM
Messenger of Minas Tirith Points: 950 Posts: 912 Joined: 21/Oct/2004
Nice thoughts everyone  Yes, I know that Morgoth was not victorius at all, but what if Sauron somehow enslaved Middle Earth, then would he try to save Morgoth or not, knowing that he would just be cast aside when Morgoth was released, (if possible). So perhaps he’d just stay in the Mortal lands and not even try to overthrow the Lords of the West, knowing that he couldn’t, so maybe he’d tighten his grip around Middle Earth. And I always thought the Void as outer space, as Eomer Windu said.

Right on the dot,shadowoflegolas! Tolkien knew that Morgoth wouldn’t reform to a good guy, that’d just be stupid, so he made it so that he was locked in forever. So unless Morgoth (or Satan) could destroy the Valar and Eru’s (God), then he’d be freed from the Void. And thankies to Bael for moving this thread.
shadowoflegolas 13/Aug/2006 at 08:55 PM
Herald of Imladris Points: 199 Posts: 176 Joined: 20/Mar/2006
Even if Sauron dominated Middle Earth, he most likely would not try to release his former master. Why would he "play second fiddle to Morgoth" again!  The only reason why I believe that Sauron didn’t try to overthrow his master was because he knew he’d have no chance, Morgoth was waaay too powerful for that. But I see no reason for Sauron to release him even if he took everything over, Morgoth would have destroyed the world Sauron was trying to dominate, and Sauron could have done nothing to stop him, Morgoth was much more powerful than him, even with his mighty ring!
Dunadar 14/Aug/2006 at 04:20 AM
Horse-groom of the Mark Points: 625 Posts: 113 Joined: 06/Apr/2006

In Tolkien’s original conception (I know its outdated and subject to much change, but it is still the source) The Valar created the Door to Night (it later became known as the Void) and it is through that door that Melkor is thrust. These doors were created so that the ships of the sun and moon may safely return to Valinor without wasting time going through the tunnels in the earth (where they could get lost or Melko could waylay them). Anyway the doors were sealed shut and could only be open by speaking the word of comand that could open them. In the original conception of Dagor Dagorath Melko would learn of the word and then release himself. The concept of a Door to Night was lost in later revisions and then it was said that Melkor would be released once the guard on him slept. So there is some conection between the void and Arda because if there wasn’t why would the Valar need to place a guard on Melkor? Maybe some of the original concept of the Door to Night remained in Tolkien’s mind because as far as I know the idea that Melkor would somehow draw the sun and the moon into the void survived (I don’t know how this would benefit him other then the fact that he seems to always destroy the things that give light: lamps, trees, sun and moon).



Lord of the Rings 14/Aug/2006 at 12:14 PM
Mandos Points: 8968 Posts: 7368 Joined: 03/Dec/2005
The concept of a Door to Night was lost in later revisions

The term ’Door of Night’ actually survives into the published Silmarillion. Not having read the HoME in full, I am not certain if this is due to only an older version being available, or whether this was intentional on Tolkien’s part. Here is the quote:

But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on those walls, and Ešrendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky.
-The Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Ešrendil

Of course, this is mentioned in the same breath as the ’Timeless Void’, a concept which, it would seem by general agreement, is likely an inaccuracy in this context. I would definitely take this with a grain of salt. Still, one cannot reject the Door of Night based on this quote alone.

But even if the Door of Night is still around, the entire concept of the Word to open it seems quite outdated, fitting in with an older conception of the Sun’s path. Regardless, it seems that the phrase ’while the Lords of the West are still enthroned’ indicates that the primary barrier to Morgoth is the Valar themselves, and that their might and vigilance keep him at bay.
Azdiur 23/Aug/2006 at 06:49 PM
Scribe of Minas Tirith Points: 2461 Posts: 1808 Joined: 13/Jul/2004
Quite an interesting question, EhtelŽ. After a lot of reading and quite a bit of thinking, this explanation began to take shape in my mind. I wish to preface it by saying that I’m not claiming I fully believe it, and I certainly do not have the lore knowledge to find a multitude of quotes to support it, and indeed it may be contradicted by something that has already been written. Still, it addresses many issues thus presented (forgive me if I don’t quote every post that has gone into it. Credit goes to pretty much every poster in th thread for pointing something out.)and seems to satisfy a number of requirements.

We know that the Valar could not send Morgoth outside Ea, but that they could force him out of Arda. We also know that Eru could have then taken Morgoth from that "Space" and have put him outside Ea itself. Turin however, summed up a problem with this view: Eru would then have to let Morgoth back in, for the Vala would not be able to secure his own return. I then intend to propose that perhaps this is exactly what happened. Maybe not, but I believe that it was a distinct possibility. Now, let me try to explain my reasoning:

We know that everything that happens, even when committed by a being with "free will" ultimately works to complete the music that Eru had planned. Thus, the marring of Arda was a part of Eru’s planned tune. If this is true, then why is Morgoth’s return and subsequent behavior not part of this as well? True, we perceive all that Morgoth did as having a negative effect upon Eru’s creation, but in the end he was fulfilling Eru’s plan. Thus, it could also be an integral part of Eru’s plan to release Morgoth and let him again effect the world. We donít know Eruís plan for the world after ďArmageddon,Ē so we donít know exactly what Morgothís actions might achieve. But if youíll allow me to draw a parallel between Arda and the Christian view of our world (not that Iím implying Tolkien wanted this to be a connection!) the end times serve as a period where death and pain are used by God to purify the world, including a final battle where evil was once and for all removed from creation. Perhaps it is Eruís plan to allow Morgoth to return and rally all who will turn to evil, so that in the battle they might all be destroyed? The world would then be without a corrupting influence, and would then stand a possibility of achieving perfection, much as a Christian envisions the world after the end times. The world itself can be remade (I believe that a supposed fate of the dwarves is to aide Aule in rebuilding and repairing the world) to achieve its ultimate state of perfection, i.e. Eruís final plan for his creation.

In essence I am saying that I find no problem with the theory that Eru did indeed complete the actions of the Valar and remove Morgoth from creation. I do not see a reason why Eru could not or would not have returned Morgoth to Ea to finish his role. After all, it seems odd to me that Morgothís actions in Eruís plan would be limited to the marring of Arda. If he would serve as the focus that drew all remaining evil to a central point to be defeated, then I can certainly see reason for Eru to inflict the world with the evil that Morgoth represented. Purifying by fire, I guess. This is all very reminiscent of the Christian belief, and I again wish to stress I make no claims that this is the way it must be, nor do I wish to offer as my only proof that Tolkien was a Christian and thus his world must conform with Christianity. I offer no proof at all of my scenario, I merely point out that it seems possible, and even makes sense and seems to work with the facts as we know them. If there is something that contradicts anything Iíve written, please point it out. Iíve yet to read every book of Tolkienís, and I value learning quite highly. So any comments are most certainly welcome!
Kaulargorn 25/Sep/2006 at 12:30 PM
Messenger of Minas Tirith Points: 938 Posts: 149 Joined: 30/May/2006
This all history with the void is quite interesting because it is quite an idea that came out from a scientist and not a linguistic man.In this way Tolkien makes his imaginative world more realistic with corellating the real universe with the universe of his world.It is considered to exist void outside our universe and Tolkien who seems to be a person with a lot of knowledge and interests connencts the dots.