Gimli talking to Haldir

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Ronaya 12/Aug/2006 at 06:11 PM
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When Gimli says to Haldir "Ish ka qui Ai ruk nul." or something like that. What does it mean. I only heard it in the movies so I don’t know if its in the books. I know its an insult but I don’t know any kind of elvish. So help me out if you can.
Magradhaid 12/Aug/2006 at 07:07 PM
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It’s not Elvish; it’s pseudo-Dwarvish; only one word in it (ai ’upon’ ) is by Tolkien; the rest was made up by David Salo.

Supposedly, according to Salo, it’s Ishkhaqwi ai-durugnul, ’I spit upon your grave’. Yet the negative reactions of Aragorn and Haldir make little sense as the Dwarves were not likely to teach Khuzdűl (their language) to anyone; indeed they kept it very secret, except when using place-names.
Anoredhel 13/Aug/2006 at 05:31 PM
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Although, a lot of the time even if someone speaks another language you can tell by their expression and tone if they are insulting you or not. I’m thinking that maybe Aragorn’s and Haldir’s reactions are not because they understand what is said but more the way its said and what the body language conveys. Reading the situation rather than understanding the words to the letter. But yet, onto point the Dwarven language was very secret very little of it is known at all and as said only the word ai for upon in that sentence was written by Tolkein it can be found in the Dwarven war cry which translates to (I believe) "Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!"
shadowoflegolas 13/Aug/2006 at 11:21 PM
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I think they understood.  Haldir reminds me of an Elf that’s been around the block a few times.
Wood Walker 25/Aug/2006 at 08:13 AM
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Arogorn was close friends with Gandalf who knew a lot about lang. And Arogorn was friends with Haldir. That’s one theory on the lang being known by them. Another is that the elves and dwarfs had trading aggrements of old and the lang may have been used in some of thoose tranactions. Example is the King under the Moutain was close to the Men of Dale, who traded with the elves. Just some ideas to think over.
Aelindis 25/Aug/2006 at 11:22 AM
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> Arogorn was close friends with Gandalf who knew a lot about lang. And Arogorn was friends with Haldir. That’s one theory on the lang being known by them. [...]

It is a simple fact that in Tolkien’s LotR Gimli does not say these words and there is no hint  that Aragorn and Halfir understand Khuzdul. 

Maybe PJ  would have found such  theories believable, if they had ever happened to cross his mind.

geordie 25/Aug/2006 at 04:11 PM
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Quite right, Aelindis. Tolkien is very firm about the fact that the Dwarves taught their language to _no non-Dwarf_. Very few words of Khuzdul are known.

The dwarves took the language of the folk they lived near to. [I think that’s written in App F]. PJ and Salo’s efforts are useless in a lore forum. hey merely cloud the issue.
Lord_Vidύm 26/Aug/2006 at 08:03 AM
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Quote: Originally posted by Tyrhael on Saturday, August 12, 2006
It’s not Elvish; it’s pseudo-Dwarvish; only one word in it (ai ’upon’ ) is by Tolkien; the rest was made up by David Salo.

Supposedly, according to Salo, it’s Ishkhaqwi ai-durugnul, ’I spit upon your grave’. Yet the negative reactions of Aragorn and Haldir make little sense as the Dwarves were not likely to teach Khuzdϋl (their language) to anyone; indeed they kept it very secret, except when using place-names.

Well, the Dwarves should have taught their language to others: "Only few people from other races became able to learn it." And in order to learn it, they had to be taught of it. I don’t say that the Dwarves were spreading their language-no they were not, they were keeping it a sacred secret- but that they would teach it to some individuals.
And I have to add the renowned battlecry the dwarves used in several battles/as well as Gimli did in HelmsDeep "Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu!" (=The axes of Dwarves! The Dwarves rush you).

The dwarves did not even use their real names, neither when they are alive, nor on their tombs.

All was found by the RotK Appendix 6- The Languages of other races-Dwarves.

Celebind Eryniel 08/Sep/2006 at 12:29 PM
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Well, I think even if Aragorn and Haldir didn’t understand what Gimli was saying, they could understand that he wasn’t saying anything nice by his tone and facial expression. (well, by what you could see of his facial expression under all that beard and makeup)  I didn’t know what Gimli said until I read this thread, but I always knew he said something insulting to Haldir.
Denethor II 09/Sep/2006 at 03:21 AM
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Aelindis: Are you aware of the fact that you actually typed Halfir in your post?
Aelindis 12/Sep/2006 at 02:38 AM
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Thank you, Denethor II, for pointing out my mistake (though I’m suspecting that even Halfir does not understand Khuzdul).

paulzorg 09/Nov/2006 at 08:36 AM
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Quote: Originally posted by Anoredhel on Sunday, August 13, 2006
Although, a lot of the time even if someone speaks another language you can tell by their expression and tone if they are insulting you or not. I’m thinking that maybe Aragorn’s and Haldir’s reactions are not because they understand what is said but more the way its said and what the body language conveys. Reading the situation rather than understanding the words to the letter. But yet, onto point the Dwarven language was very secret very little of it is known at all and as said only the word ai for upon in that sentence was written by Tolkein it can be found in the Dwarven war cry which translates to (I believe) "Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!"

quite right, if i were to have some french person walk up to me and start insulting me, if they said it with a nice expresion and a good tone, i would think that they were complamenting me, even if what they were saying was:’I spit on your grave US fool, go to ****’
NineFingered 18/Nov/2006 at 04:08 PM
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I would also like to think that Haldir and Aragorn knew it was an insult only from the way Gimli spoke, but they looked as if they understood. Maybe they could get a few words? I don’t know. And yes, the Dwarves were very jealous of their tongue and seldom taught it to other. I have a feeling that Galadriel probably knew some of it, because she mentioned quite a few words to Gimli in his own tongue, words that perhaps Silvan elves like Haldir would be ignorant of. And elves have a way with words...
Elros Tar-Minya 19/Nov/2006 at 06:51 AM
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The words that Galdriel knew and said to Gimli were only place names that were known to many in ME.

Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibilnâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder
Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone.’ She looked upon Gimli, who sat glowering and sad, and she smiled. [LOTR, The Mirror of Galadriel


A footnote in App.F on the languages it goes onto state;

Few of other race have succeeded in learning it. In this history it appears only in such place-names as Gimli revealed to his companions; and in the battle-cry which he uttered in the siege of the Hornburg. That at least was not secret, and had been heard on many a field since the world was young. Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-męnu! ’Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!’ (my bold emphasis) LOTR, App.F

This I have taken to mean that there were indeed others that have learnt the Khuzdul, though they aren’t many. Of these it may well be possible that they were of the wise and may well be Gandalf, Galdriel etc. though I don’t believe we will ever know for sure.



Magradhaid 19/Nov/2006 at 09:45 AM
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Gandalf reveals at the West-gate of Moria that even he does not know Khuzdűl, saying "... I shall not have to call on Gimli for words of the secret dwarf-tongue that they teach to none."
Elros Tar-Minya 20/Nov/2006 at 01:59 AM
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Good point Tyrhael I must have overlooked that part when making my post. So we can scratch Gandalf’s name off the list but other than the reference in App.F does anyone know of any of references to non-dwarvish people speaking Khuzdul?
SidraLockel Eltoran 22/Nov/2006 at 06:31 PM
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Ronaya, Tryhael is right. Here is the link to the site were you can see it explained. <http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_fotr.htm>
I hope that you get all your questions answered!
Kirinki54 23/Nov/2006 at 01:59 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Elros Tar-Minya on Monday, November 20, 2006
Good point Tyrhael I must have overlooked that part when making my post. So we can scratch Gandalf’s name off the list but other than the reference in App.F does anyone know of any of references to non-dwarvish people speaking Khuzdul?

Well, since we know that the Adűnaic (and thus by derivation, the Westron) was in part based on Khűzdul, it seems plain that the Edain must have learned some of the Dwarven speech. Of the Elves, there was Pengolodh who stayed a period in Khazad-dum, and likely also learned something of it. And what about Eöl? He went to study smth-craft and work with the Dwarves at several occasions (but as far as I know there is no textual support that he learned their language).
Battlehamster 23/Nov/2006 at 03:16 PM
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I agree with both the tone-of -voice thing and the Dwarves are very secretive about their languages thing, but why are we expecting something that happened in the movies to make any sense whatsoever in the world of the books?