The Will of the Ring

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Lord_Vidύm 30/Aug/2006 at 07:28 AM
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Well, the Ring had a will of its own. It wanted to return to its Master-Sauron. That will of course, was opposing to that of Fate (Mandos) and Illuvatar. However, in that opposition, the Ring without knowing it, brought itself where Eru wanted it to be, and finally it lost.

My question is simple. Don’t you think that this shows us that evil in Tolkien had a tention to Selfdestruction? The Ring having its own Will was just fullfilling the will of Illuvatar, without knowing it. The same we would see with Morgoth. He was trying to conquer the World, yet the only thing he achieved with his attempts, was to lose his powers, become the most earthbound of all other Valar, and finally be exiled into the Void- although he was working on his own will, it was His will that led him to the end.

Phil_d_one 30/Aug/2006 at 08:13 AM
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Tolkien himself (through Theoden) said something of that nature in TTT (I) The Palantir:

’But it has long been said: oft evil will shall evil mar.’

But I disagree with your analysis of the situation regarding the Ring. For it was not the Ring that brought itself to the Sammath Naur, it was Frodo, and Tolkien is clear that Frodo deserves all honour for doing what he did.

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), ’that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named’ (as one critic has said). A third (the only other) commentator on the point some months ago reviled Frodo as a scoundrel (who should have been hung and not honoured), and mee too. It seems sad and strange that, in this evil time when daily people of good will are tortured, brainwashed, and broken, anyone could be so fiercely simpleminded and self righteous.
(Letter 192)

So in principle I agree with you, but not with the reasoning that brings you to your conclusion
Lord_Vidύm 30/Aug/2006 at 08:33 AM
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I don’t say that Frodo deserves no honour. Frodo deserves honour for he was able to resist the corruption of the Ring, for a pretty long time, and not claim the Power of it. However, it was the Ring’s will to return to its Master (who was in Mordor), so and in Mordor. Because there, it would surely corrupt Frodo or whoever his bearer was, and reveal himself.

So I agree that Frodo deserves honour, but not for getting to Mordor, but that he was able to resist the Ring. In addition, it seems like he even failed (he finally claimed the Ring) and that how I get the "Suffecient destined point" the Letter 192 reffers to. However I don’t see any clue that would say that it wasn’t the Will of the Ring that brought it in Mordor. Maybe I am wrong however

simpsonim 30/Aug/2006 at 08:41 AM
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Well it was not all the Ring’s fault that it got destroyed. It always did everything in it’s power to not get destructed. And even in the end when Frodo got the ring to Sammath Naur the Ring won over Frodo’s will and it wouldn’t have been destroyed but would acchieve it’s goal of returning to Sauron if it hadn’t been for Gollum who at that point didn’t carry the ring...

It was simply the will of Iluvatar and although the Ring did all it’s power to survive and come to Sauron and almost acchieved it a couple of times it was in the end destroyed cause it was it’s fate...


Although , when I look at it now... I don’t say that evil has the intention of selfdestruction but everything the Ring does for it’s own good and goals backfires in the future... I would consider that fate but that fate was caused by the Ring itself so in the end... it was destructed cause of it’s own actions, I guess...

halfir 30/Aug/2006 at 10:09 AM
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it was destructed cause of it’s own actions, I guess...

Pretty dumb thing to do then- about as dumb as Sauron who tied up his own fate with it!X(

simpsonim 30/Aug/2006 at 10:19 AM
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Well , yeah

Ofcourse , It(the ring) nor Sauron couldn’t have known what the future brings (unlike Eru) but still...

I would rather say that the evil has a tendency to do stupid and irrational things that cause their demise in the end rather then ’selfdestruct’ as Vidum put it. Only Morgoth didn’t do a mistake like that and that’s why the Valar had to come and destroy him with force and power themselves.

zydar 30/Aug/2006 at 11:27 AM
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However I don’t see any clue that would say that it wasn’t the Will of the Ring that brought it in Mordor.

There’s a small hitch here. The ring’s intent was, obviously to get to Mordor to its Master. Mordor was also precisely where Frodo wanted to go. So as far as Mount Doom their paths (paths of Frodo, and "the Ring") were pretty much the same. It was only at that point where there was a fork. The Ring "wanting" to get to Sauron in Barad-Dur, but Frodo wanting to get to Samnath Naur to destroy it. At that inevitable point, Frodo lost contol and "obeyed" the Ring. And immediately, Sauron was aware of him. That was the Ring there. Not in any way closer bringing about its own destruction at that point. Rather, it had made Sauron aware of the ringbearer. This was one of the best possible things to happen for the Ring. The events that followed, however, were pretty extraneous, in the sense that they weren’t "normal". Gollum interfered and "slipped" off the edge. The course of this last string of events, to me seemed almost scripted. Both Frodo and Sauron (even the Ring!) could only watch as things unravelled. So in this last part, none (with the exception of Eru), least of all the Ring, had a part in.
Phil_d_one 30/Aug/2006 at 01:45 PM
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Because, Vidum, if it was the Ring that got itself to Mordor, and Eru that destroyed it (and we know this latter to be fact) then it follows that Frodo was nothing more than a puppet in the destruction of the Ring, since he himself did absolutely nothing active that lead to its destruction. And if this is the case, then Frodo certainly does not deserve the credit he got. But despite the fact that it was in the end divine intervention that led to the destruction of the Ring, Frodo does deserve the credit he got, as Tolkien tells us most emphatically in Letter 192. So he was not a passive observer in the Ring’s passage to Mordor, and it was he, not the Ring, that got to Mordor.

simpsonim: Actually I’d say that Morgoth did make a mistake, and that mistake is precisely what we can term ’Morgoth’. Melkor used up a large part of his native power by imbuing it into the fabric of Arda itself, and distributing it among his servants. Thus, the Morgoth was the sum of his power in all its forms, and that was equal to his inherent power. But the persona of Melkor contained only a very small part of that inherent power, and so he was very much weaker than he initially was. So while he ensured that he couldn’t be destroyed as long as Arda itself endured, he also made himself earthbound. And while he ensured that his armies were much stronger than they could otherwise be, he also made himself much weaker than he would otherwise be. And so Morgoth was far from infallible: he was able to all but conquer Beleriand, but he did make mistakes in so doing.

halfir 30/Aug/2006 at 04:06 PM
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Phil_d_one: I have crossed swords with you and others before on the issue of Divnine Intervention, for in relying on Letter # 192 you omit the crucial aspect that the Divine Intervention was only effected because Frodo had shown a freely willed act of mercy towards Gollum at an earlier stage. That is why Eru could intervene. If Frodo’s action had not taken place then such Divine Intervention would indeed have made him a puppet, and the whole story would be a valueless exercise in predestination. But Frodo - of his own free will, as when he acceptedt the Quest, by that merciful action towards Gollum  enabled the intervention of Eru.So to quote Letter # 192 without also  quoting Letters # 181 and # 191 is a very misleading exercise.

Letter # 192

’Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was sufficient to brig him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), ’that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named,* (as one critic has said). See Vol 1 p.62.(Note 2)

* Actually referred to as ’the One’ App.A 111 p.317L.20. The Numenoreans (and Elves) were monotheists)

{Note 2: ’Behind that there was something else at work , beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring and not  by its maker  (Gandalf to Frodo).

Letter # 181

’But at this point the ’salvation’ of the world and Frodo’s  own ’salvation’ is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly * betray him , and could rob him in the end. To ’pity’ him, to forbear to  kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end- but by a ’grace’ that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was  the most beneficial thing anyone cd. have done for frodo! By a situation created by his ’forgiveness’ , he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden. {My emphasis}

* Not quite ’certainly’. The clumsiness in fidelity  of Sam was what finally pushed Gollum over the brink, when about to repent.

Letter # 191

He {Frodo} (and the Cause) were saved- by Mercy: by the supreme value and efficacy of Pity and forgiveness of injury.....There exists the possibility of being placed in positions beyond one’s power. In which case (as I believe) salvation from ruin will depend on something  unconnected: the general sanctity (and humility and mercy) of the sacrificial person. I did not ’arrange’  the deliverance in this case: it again follows  the logic of the story. (Gollum had had his chance of repentance, and of returning generosity with love: and had fallen off the knife-edge). {my emphasis}

since he himself did absolutely nothing active that lead to its destruction

This is quite untrue . He actively showed mercy and pity towards Gollum, which is why Divine Intervention was possible without making the whole Quest a mechanistic puppet-show. If by ’active’ you simply mean physical action- then that is true-in the final destruction of the One- but far too simplistic.

 

Bearamir 30/Aug/2006 at 06:03 PM
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Ladies & Gentlemen:  This thread has been nominated for transfer to Ad Lore.  Since the discussion *is* showing some very good potential for development and "enchanced" discussion I think we’ll try a change of venue to see what develops.  Prepare for move to Ad Lore.
Ankala Teaweed 30/Aug/2006 at 07:43 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Lord_Vidύm on Wednesday, August 30, 2006
 . . .  I agree that Frodo deserves honour, but not for getting to Mordor, but that he was able to resist the Ring. In addition, it seems like he even failed (he finally claimed the Ring) . . .  

Did Frodo claim the ring, Lord_V? Or did the One Ring claim Frodo? I believe that the text and the Letter 192 bear out the latter.

halfir, I seem to recall a thread around the subject of the Ring on similar issues--do you see a difference between consciousness and will? Can it have its own will without consciousness, or is it a matter solely of power?

Lord_Vidύm 31/Aug/2006 at 12:20 AM
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WOW, so many shocks in one day. Good words from Halfir, a post moved in AL.

Well, now we go:
Zydar- Two things. 
Gollum had ultimately a great part after the claim of Frodo. But for him, Frodo would leave Samnath Naur. Gollum was able to spot him (because of his great sences gained in wilderness) and attack him, take the Ring off, and then begin to "celebrate". Eru interfered (if he did) only when Gollum was celebrating his ’victory’.
In addition it is said that the Ring’s power was getting more and more as it came closer to where it was created (And that place was Samnath Naur). There the Ring would be able to rule over the minds of everyone, and that was Its will (rule over Frodo, and reveal him to Sauron in order to return to Him).

Phil- you didn’t understand me again. I said that the credit to Frodo should be given to him, because he Endured the weight of the Ring for long enough for Eru to take the line. Frodo was able to endure the corruption of the Ring till he reached Samnath Naur, and Eru interfered (After the luck of Gollum getting the Ring).
And I agree on your point about Morgoth, I would say the same

Halfir- I think that up to the time Gollum didn’t know that Frodo’s intention was to destroy the Ring, he didn’t mean to hurt him, but keep his promise. We see that when Frodo is attacked by Shelob, and Gollum attacks Sam. He tells to himself that he finally didn’t harm Master but She did. Once Gollum however learnt of Frodo’s intention he tried with all means to stop him (firstly attacked him, and then up to Oroduin cut his finger for It).

Ann Kalagon- Of course and Frodo claimed over the Ring. Why? Two reasons I have.
Sam once upon a time, in Cirith Ungol used the Ring. However Sauron did not ’get’ him. Why was that so? Because Sam did not claim the Ring that time, and he did not get deceived by the illusions of power coming from the Ring. That shows us that when the Ring is not used under claim (very hard however to happen because of the corruption) Sauron cannot realise its use. So since Frodo used it and Sauron got it, it means Frodo claimed the Powers of it.
Secondly, I give the quote of what Frodo said: ’I came, he said. But now I can’t decide if I can bring an end to the mission I took. I will not do that thing. The Ring is mine!" Emphasis Clearly shows that Frodo claims the Power of the Ring. And that is the "just sufficient to bring him to the destined point and no further" the letter of Tolkien most probably speaks about.
I don’t get however what you mean by conciousness and will, most probably because I have not seen that thread.

halfir 02/Sep/2006 at 01:39 AM
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AK: There are two threads that I think cover the points you refer to. The first and lengthiest conatins’ Largo’s excellent analysis of the Boethian and Manichaen asepcts of evil in LOTR- the duality that provides it with its critical dynamic. This can be found at:

How sentient was the One Ring?

 

http://www.lotrplaza.com/archive/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=46&TopicID=10540&PagePosition=8

 

The other is:

 

The Ring sentient?

 

http://www.lotrplaza.com/Archive4/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=21&TopicID=169685&PagePosition=39

 

I’ll get back to answer your main question a little later as I’ve just returned from a short seaside break and have a lot of RL staring me in the face!

 

 

simpsonim 02/Sep/2006 at 09:46 AM
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Wow... this thread totally slipped my mind I didn’t even see it went away from BL.  So anyway, a bit late but...

Phil - I agree and I didn’t forget how Morgoth gave out his power and with time became much less powerfull and lost a lot of his abilities and became earthbound and I’m fully aware of how big of a mistake that was but my point was... He didn’t do an obvious mistake, like one specific thing, one specific event that was the cause of his demise later(like Sauron making his ring. That was his big mistake.)
He(Morgoth) gave his power away through a lot of time , a bit by bit. And if it weren’t for that he wouldn’t have some powerfull creatures and well, alot of things would be different. And although he became much weaker in the end he beat the elves and he conquered beleriand and no one could stand up to him and stop him.
Because of that, when there were no more options nor ways of beating him, those of his own kind (other valar) had to come themselves to finally destroy him, and because he became so powerless he didn’t stand a chance but atleast no other then his equals were abled to beat him, unlike with Sauron and well every other evil we know. I wouldn’t say anything if an army of Maiar fought aginst Sauron but he was acctualy destroyed because he made this awfull mistake of putting his power into a ring just so he could control the other rings and thus became so vulnerable that a mere Hobbit could be the instrument of his demise. Maybe he would be much more safe and less easy to destroy (not by a single stroke of a broken sword) if he kept the power in him on the cost of a mere 9 Nazguls.

Ann Kalagon - although you asked Halfir, and I’m sure he’ll give you a better and more lore researched answer I would just like to add my opinion...
I can’t imagine will without consciousness. For example. When the ring slipped off Isildurs finger while he was swimming across Anduin and went into the depths of the river. The Ring wanted to get of Isildur - that’s Will. But in order to will that The Ring had to be aware of a number of things like: that it was a ring, that a ring is held on a finger, that in order to slip from a finger it had to expand, that it is currently in the water and so on... And awareness IS consciousness (dictionary says so, lol). So I would say that will cannot go without consciousnness.
Now could the ring be aware of things? In order to be aware of something you have to have sences. It maybe didn’t have any sences but only previous knowledge that it was a ring and that in order to slip of a persons finger it had to expand but in that case it couldn’t know when or where and there has been to much situations in the history of the ring when it fell off in the worst possible moment or on a place where a certain someone could and will find it, that we could consider that coincidence.
So I conclude that the ring had to have some sences. So the question is now: WHAT sences?
It didn’t have eyes or ears or nose so I doubt it could see or hear or smell. It could have had a sence of touch but I doubt it. I doubt that it had any of the human sences.
Maybe when Sauron made it a part of his own mind was caught in it giving the ring some of his knowledge, goals, will and consciousness. If that is the case than maybe it had something that could be called a 6th sence. Like a hunch. That it just knew that it had to slip then and there and control that mind and do this or that but it didn’t know why. I bet all of you had one of those in your lives. When you just knew you had to go right even though all your sences and logic told you left. And you didn’t know why you had to go right you just did.
Or maybe the ring had something like when a dog sences fear. Maybe the ring could sence emotions and/or the persons course of mind and thoughts and know everything that person knows - look through his eyes, smell through his nose and hear through his ears. For a proof of that you might consider Gollum. He wore the Ring for so long that the ring even developed a second personality in Gollum. And that personality, that part of his mind was in control of the Ring and that part of his mind smelled, saw, and heard all that the other personality did too so the ring was aware of all the things gollum was...

So to conclude: I think that will cannot exist without a consciousness. Thus I think the ring had to had consciousness and was aware of things around him. To be aware of the things around it the Ring used the sences of the creature in it’s possesion and if worn long enough it would slowly take over the mind of the wielder as it happened to Gollum.

Mirkwoodworker 02/Sep/2006 at 10:41 AM
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This is an interesting thread. I’d always been a little puzzled about Tolkien’s description of the Ring as having desires.
Tirion Rothir 03/Sep/2006 at 08:15 PM
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I’ve examined this thread and, in simpsonim’s most recent post, several interesting points were brought up, but the most interesting was that of the Ring having a consciousness. A definite answer to this possibility is nie on impossible since it lies in the realm of philosophy, but it is worth discussing.

It is interesting to note that in Tolkien’s works about Middle Earth, there are several instances of objects with the ability to, of their own volition, communicate with, or influence people (this is to be distinguished from something like a staff, which is a medium of some sort). These objects work apart from human will for them to act, but not without human influence (or dwarven, elven, orcish, etc.). Examples include swords of Beleriand, which showed a pale light near orcs, and the interesting swords of Eol, one of which spoke to Turin Turambar after the tragic slaying of Beleg . It appears that with objects of this sort, they have almost a feel for good or evil and the will of the bearer (for there is always a bearer, is there not?). "Their" actions, then, are based on the good or evil around them, rather than an act entirely of their own decisionmaking, which would require not only a consciousness, as simpsonim pointed out, but also an intellect and an understanding of emotion, if not emotion itself. Without these, will is useless. Therefore, it is a morality-sense that these objects are endowed with by their creator. It is a natural line of thought, then, to see that the elves, having discovered this, study and make use of it to create rings with set abilities and masters. Sauron, having recieved this knoweledge in exchange for some of his own, Creates the One Ring to rule all, and does so with it attuned to his own self, his own incarnation of evil. It is for the evil of its master then, that the Ring searches. To wield the Ring, one must become as great an incarnation of evil as Sauron himself, and until then, find their wills weakened by its draw on what evil they have. To give in or to retain their strength in goodness is ever the Bearers’ struggle and choice.

Lord_Vidύm 04/Sep/2006 at 12:18 AM
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Well, to wield the Ring you don’t have to be evil. You just need the power to overpass Sauron’s will I think. After that, you can become the Ringmaster. Unfortunately however, the Ring has an evil of its own in it, by the time it was created by Sauron. That would mean that although, you turnt a good ringmaster at the beggining, you would end up in being evil after all.

simpsonim 04/Sep/2006 at 04:58 AM
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Exactly Vidum. The ring can only be used to do evil. If you have more power then Sauron and are absolutely good the ring doesn’t do anthing at all as is seen form the example of Tom Bombadil.

Tirion - great post . But I disagree with in several things. I think you cannot compare The One Ring with any other object in ME. All those swords that shine when orcs are near and stuff like that, I don’t think that is will I think that it’s just some magic of the sword that elves put on it... You can take a simple example of technology from RL like sensors. There are sensors that can do whatever you program them to do when (for example) a metal object comes near. Well I always considered those swords as some kind of magical sensores...
Also Gurthang, Turin’s sword, it didn’t have a will of it’s own. It didn’t jump in Turin’s heart and killed him nor did it fail him in battle nor is there any sign that only he could bear it and not anyone else who chooses. That only time when Guthrang spoke to Turin I always considered that like Turin’s conscience talking to him cause the sword acctualy didn’t do a thing nor did it had a mouth. Turin placed it on the ground and Turin threw himself on it...

The only object I think we can even try to compare to the Ring as having even a bit of it’s own will is the Silmarils. But even they didn’t have will to that extent, they only choose to who will they let to touch them and who will they burn. And I give credit for that to the curse of Feanor and the power of the Valar and Fate.

While ring is the only thing in ME that could really had it’s own will and consciousness and could make decidions of it’s own and well do everything a living creature can and I have theory why is that so...

I think that when Sauron trapped a part of his power into the ring he also trapped a part of himself, of his soul, of his mind, of his knowledge, of his goals, of his intelligence, of his evil. And when the ring was on his finger he would be complete. But the Ring for itself didn’t have any sences nor anything. The ring never did anything when it was not wielded. It couldn’t. When it was not wielded that part of Saurons mind was just trapped in there and thought and planned and couldn’t do a thing.
But when the ring was worn, that part of Sauron’s mind somehow went into the wielder and inhabbited in his mind. If worn little and rarely it couldn’t do any great harm it would just ’nest’ into the wielders mind and see the world through the wielders sences. That’s how it knew when to slip of Isildurs finger.
However, if the ring was in ones possession for a lot of time it would form a certain connection with the wielders mind and could affect it’s will. The Ring’s will against the Wielder’s will. In that stage I picture it as voices... like when a man is going nuts and he hears voices in his head.
If the ring was worn for even a longer period of time the connection would get stronger and would make like a second identity as in Gollums case. But even then Gollum had a big part of his own will an although the ring could affect his decidions greatly he still wanted to keep it and stay in the tunnels in Hithaeglir...
If Gollum had that ring for another couple of hundred years I think the ring would take absolute control over him and the Sauron within the Smeagol would become greater then the Smeagol itself and it would just take over Smeagols body and would walk back into Mordor and hand itself to Sauron...

Well that is just my theory but the key to it is that I think that Sauron entrapped not only a part of his power but a part of his mind into the ring.
And as much as I hate to compare it with this I just can’t help not to see the perfect example to explain what I mean. In HP 6 the horcruxes were objects that had a piece of a man’s soul in them. And in HP 2 a piece of Voldemort’s soul that is captued in that Diary of his has it’s own will. It is Voldemort but doesn’t work on the commands of  the living Voldermort, it works separately as a ’little’ Voldemort itself. And it communicates with the wielder by writing on the empty pages with ink that disappears. (which is a bit more childish then in Tolkien’s case)
I think the Ring and Sauron are in the same relation as that Diary and Voldemort only the Ring communicates with the wielder through his mind.
Maybe both Tolkien and Rowling took that from some old legend or myth...

Tirion Rothir 04/Sep/2006 at 03:38 PM
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Excellent rebuttal, simpsonim, and I conceed the point in general.

What I disagreed with in your earlier post was the claim that the Ring had a consciousness of its own, and in replying I leaned too far toward the other extreme to include objects of reaction, such as the swords, to prove my point about sensitivity. Your latest explanation includes an indwelling of part of Sauron’s spirit, which, while I cannot say I understand enough to accept, makes a much stronger and believable argument which I could agree to for now. The philosophy and presentation of the argument were excellent and is certainly the strongest explanation for the Ring’s dominating effect. 

My reasons for disagreeing earlier were mainly that when you claimed the Ring had a consciousness, you led along a logical path to believe that it was therefore its own entity or being. This, as I noted before, is quite impossible without an intellect to understand the world around it and, to distinguish an intelligent being from a dumb animal, an emotional sense to understand the peoples around it. By putting the personhood of Sauron within the Ring, you satisfy this argument.

Acabar 04/Sep/2006 at 07:17 PM
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simpsonim: If Gollum had that ring for another couple of hundred years I think the ring would take absolute control over him and the Sauron within the Smeagol would become greater then the Smeagol itself and it would just take over Smeagols body and would walk back into Mordor and hand itself to Sauron...

A very interesting hypothetical, simpsonim. Hmmm . . . I wonder. My own gut feeling is that Gollum would have come to a miserable end beneath the Misty Mountains. He was of Hobbit kind, and so had a great natural resistance to the Ring’s power, and also, I imagine his own ambitions were simply too petty (as Sam’s were too modest), and his own self-loathing too powerful (as Sam’s self-image was too humble), for him to fall completely prey to the One’s influence. Perhaps that is why the Ring decided to seek a new owner.

I do think this is a great observation, Lord Vidum. I believe that the quote that Phil_d_one mentions: "Oft evil will shall evil mar." has a great many resonances in the story, and is as important a theme to be recognized as Frodo’s heroism. It is partly Grishnákh’s treason, for example, which rescues Pippin and Merry by getting them away from both Uglúk and the impending massacre. In Cirith Ungol, the orcs defeat themselves by acting orc-ish. And shortly after that, the tracker takes care of Frodo and Sam’s business for them "neat as neat" when, while just on the verge of possibly discovering the weary hobbits, he puts an arrow through the eye of his comrade and slinks selfishly away.

I think it is the nature of evil to bring about it’s own undoing. After all, the impulse to evil is by nature divisive and destructive. ’There is no honor among thieves’ as the saying goes. Perhaps Tolkien is showing this concept in the Ring itself. It does seem to me that the Ring is both selfish and malicious, and if Sauron’s will is in the ring, how can it not be so? Is it seeking its master only because Sauron’s finger is the position of its greatest advantage? I have always felt like that was the Ring’s motivation. On the other hand (no pun intended), if another great power had come to possess the One, say Gandalf of Saruman, perhaps we would have seen the limits of the One’s loyalty to Sauron.

Still, I don’t think that I can see anywhere where the Ring actually forces the action of bringing itself closer to Mount Doom, unless it is in the act of choosing new masters for itself. In fact, the Ring’s power saves itself from destruction by its influence over Isildur. And Tolkien (and Gandalf) suggests that the Ring’s most fateful choice, that of Bilbo Baggins was not the work of the Ring or its Master, but (presumably) of Eru. So, I think that in the case of the Ring itself, we have to give virtually all the credit for its destruction to the good guys.

Lord_Vidύm 05/Sep/2006 at 12:17 AM
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Simps: Also Gurthang, Turin’s sword, it didn’t have a will of it’s own. It didn’t jump in Turin’s heart and killed him nor did it fail him in battle nor is there any sign that only he could bear it and not anyone else who chooses. That only time when Guthrang spoke to Turin I always considered that like Turin’s conscience talking to him cause the sword acctualy didn’t do a thing nor did it had a mouth. Turin placed it on the ground and Turin threw himself on it...
Well, according to Mellian however, the sword never abandoned its creator’s will, and it (the sword) would betray the hand that held it. The exact quote: "There is still evil in that sword. The black heart of his forger is still alive in it. It will not love the hand that it serves; neither it will stay with it for long" The black heart of the sword did not appear after the fall of Turin, but during the death of Beleg (he died by that sword, by the hands of his most beloved friend).

I think that when Sauron trapped a part of his power into the ring he also trapped a part of himself, of his soul, of his mind, of his knowledge, of his goals, of his intelligence, of his evil: in support "And a great part of Sauron’s Power and Will went into that Ring; for the power of the elven rings was too great, and the ring that would rule them should be even greater" Silmarillion-The Rings of Power

Thanks Acabar

simpsonim 05/Sep/2006 at 03:47 AM
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Tirion - well...thanks

Acabar - well, that is more logical, maybe I gave a wrong example. I said that hypotheticaly for anyone who bears the ring but my opinion on Gollum is pretty much what you said. The Ring was to long delayed from returning to it’s ’other part’, Sauron, and I pressume it tryed to do what I said that would hypotheticaly occur after such a long period of time but Gollum turned out to be a bit tougher shell to crack. The Ring wanted to get a new owner but, by the will of Eru, it got Hobbits both times which is the worst creature, for The Ring, to bear it cause they are most resiliant to it and have hubble goals.
So when the Ring senced that his ’other part’ is getting stronger again it realised that it had to find another owner so he/she can take it out of that mountain and try to achieve it’s goal (getting back to Sauron) with the new bearer. And I also agree with you that it was Eru’s will that, of all people, Bilbo comes along. So the Ring wanted out but he couldn’t choose the new owner, Eru did it for it.

"Is it seeking its master only because Sauron’s finger is the position of its greatest advantage? I have always felt like that was the Ring’s motivation. On the other hand (no pun intended), if another great power had come to possess the One, say Gandalf of Saruman, perhaps we would have seen the limits of the One’s loyalty to Sauron." , I have a different opinion on this Acabar. As Tirion said in his last post, about how I with that theory that a piece of Sauron was in the ring I explained the Ring’s consciousness and intelligence, the Ring isn’t intelligent by itself nor has will nor has consciousness, it is all Sauron. A part of Sauron. That’s why I, earlyer through the post, adressed Sauron not as the Ring’s master but as the rings ’other part’. I think that the Ring’s motivation (i.e. Sauron’s motivation because the Ring is Sauron) is to get to his ’other part’ and make it complete. And I don’t think that there is a limit of loyalty to Sauron cause if the Ring(which is a part of Sauron [that is still a theory ofcourse, which you are welcome to dismiss]) betrayed Sauron it would be like Sauron betrayed himself which is not even the least logical.

Vidum -   , perhaps Melian implies that a part of Eol’s ’black heart’ /soul also went into the sword as did Sauron’s in the ring but I think that that was unintentional, that Eol didn’t do that on purpose. More like when a writer writes a book a part of him has to ’enter’ the book, if you know what I mean. But I still think that the sword had any will of it’s own, maybe just brought bad luck to the wielder, as in Fate.

Acabar 05/Sep/2006 at 09:31 PM
Porter of Minas Tirith Points: 4472 Posts: 3779 Joined: 11/Feb/2003

I do think that the Ring had power even when not wielded. For example, Gandalf tells Frodo: " A Ring of Power looks after itself" (FotR, The Shadow of the past) He goes on to say that "when a chance came it caught poor Déagol" (FotR, The Shadow of the past). The wording makes me think that the Ring drew Déagol to itself as it was sitting on the riverbed.

There can be no doubt that a part of Sauron passed into the One Ring, and I think I do understand fully what you mean when you say that the Ring was Sauron. I almost agree with you. But I think that in order for Sauron to truly imbue the Ring with a part of his strength and will, he was obliged to give up some measure of control over it. In order for his will to pass into the Ring, Sauron must relinquish some of that will, and the Ring must acquire some. One might say that the Ring is Sauron, but I believe it is as a separate Sauron - almost absolutely aligned with the first, I would say, but not quite absolutely.   

I love your analogy of the writer.  Yet a writer must give up some measure of control over his ideas if there is to be any meaningful communication with a reader. A writer does first need to put himself into the story, but he cannot complete the expression of any part of himself to a reader. He must rely on that reader to interpret what is there, and as Tolkien points out, each reader must necessarily interpret in his or her own way. You can tell a reader how to interpret the story, but that is not art. Only by allowing the reader freedom to complete the connection for him or herself, through the application his or her own unique disposition and life experience, can a writer hope to achieve any real meaningful direct connection with a reader, any real communication on a higher (or deeper, perhaps) level that comes through the story itself. 

In the same way, I think you cannot create a Ring of Power without conceding to it some power which is its entirely. Which theory, of course, you are welcome to disagree with. 

Lord_Vidύm 05/Sep/2006 at 11:14 PM
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The relation of Sauron for the Ring, is vital. The relation of the Ring for Sauron is just seeking of completion. And that’s why I think, the Ring wanted to return. Sauron and the Ring, are one, because they together share the power of the once Sauron. So the Ring in order to be fully charged, had to be in the hands of its Master.

However this doesn’t cancel the idea of someone else becoming a new dark lord. For the Ring could stay even under the wielding of someone else. For the destruction of Sauron, doesn’t mean the destruction of the Ring (vice versa does not exist). The Ring would get another Lord, and be powerful again via him.

So there is a special relation with Sauron and the Ring, in a seek of completion. It’s like having a plate and you break it into 2 pieces. Then the most perfect plate you could create is by re-unite those two pieces. That doesn’t mean you can’t take pieces from another plate and try to unite them. That’s how i think of it now, reading the posts.

simpsonim 06/Sep/2006 at 03:34 AM
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Acabar -  I agree with you. I meant acctualy the same thing , you probably just missed it in there or I wasn’t clear enough. I to meant that the Ring itself is a ’mini’ Sauron. But seeks completion with the Sauron Sauron.

And about the writer. Besides that I aslo meant... Well as much as Tolkien wanted to make the story non allegorical and without any inner meaning or anything between the lines...just a story that is to be interesting and fun to read. But as much as a writer trys to do that a part of him always escapes in the Book. Always a part of the write, a part of his exparience, a part of his religion, a part of his beliefs, a part of his life philosophy implements in the very fabric of the story. You should not torn the story into pieces and analyse it because of that, but it’s still there you know. For example Tolkien probably believed that good always wins and that’s why it always wins in all his books and I think he couldn’t have writen a book where evil wins.... well, getting a bit out of point here...

Vidum - I again disagree with you. The ring could grant power to someone else(for example Saruman) and he would become great and destroy Rohan and further on but when he would face Sauron the ring would betray him and Sauron would destroy him....  Cause the Ring is Sauron and when it made Saruman powerfull it was only as a part of the plan to get back to Sauron afterall... get what I mean?
It would make Saruman powerfull and turn him evil and he would destroy around (which acctualy helps Sauron) and then when he would want to destroy Sauron (which he will want to in the end cause there can’t be two dark lords and he would become so evil that he would want to subdue all of ME to him, including Sauron) the ring would betray him and join his other part (Sauron) cause they are One. Together they are One and when they are apart the Ring’s only goal is to get back to being One with Sauron... and in that mission it might help others to become mighty but only to betray them in the end.

Cause as long as there is the ring there is Sauron and no one can destroy Sauron as long as the ring exists and who ever has the ring would want to destroy Sauron in the end ...that’s an endless circle... and it can only be ended if the Sauron gets the ring or if the ring is destroyed.

Lord_Vidύm 06/Sep/2006 at 03:58 AM
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I don’t think that the Ring would betray Saruman. I am sorry. Saruman had the power needed in order to rule over the Ring. He wasn’t an orc or an elf, neither was he a man. He was a Maia, with special powers, until he lost everything. So, I think that Saruman could get the Ring, and just destroy everything (because of the Ring’s corruption), but I don;t think that the Ring would betray him.

Don’t forget that Saruman knew a lot about the lore of rings. So I don’t think that he would have failed on that. Finally some sayings of Gandalf:
"He suspects we are heading to Minas Tirith; for that’s what he would do in our position. And according to his wisdom, smething like that would be a great hit for his power. And really he is very afraid, not knowing who powerful might appear suddenly, wearing the Ring, attacking him in order to bring him down and take his place"
"the winner would come out the more powerful than both and without any doubts, said Gandalf. But Isenguard cannot match Mordor, if Saruman does not get the Ring first." Both by TTT-White Rider.

These for me show a lot, of what I said about a new lord. Especially the second quote.

cister 06/Sep/2006 at 05:49 AM
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don’t forget that the ring only want’s sauron as his master, i think, near matter how clever saruman was, the ring would glide on a day from his finger, just like he did with isildur, and go ahead to sauron. so the ring would be found by someone, orc, elve, goblin, hobbit, wizard, and he would betray the for a while and glide of there fingers.
simpsonim 06/Sep/2006 at 08:43 AM
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Vidum - in that quote Gandalf says that Isengard could match Mordor if saruman gets the ring but I think that that is only in power... I’m in school now and i don’t have my books with me but I have a quote a mind... I’ll try to find it later.  I still think that The Ring cannot be ruled by anyone and at any time the ring can slip from anyones finger if it sees the chance to join Sauron again.

Lord_Vidύm 06/Sep/2006 at 09:30 AM
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Well, I don’t know I am confused. For I also believed in that for a long time. Yet it seems that the Rings works in mysterious ways. The Ring’s power can be shared by a lot, but the Ring’s will wants it back to its master. That’s how the things must be.
simpsonim 06/Sep/2006 at 11:47 AM
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Vidum - , agreed .
cister 06/Sep/2006 at 12:41 PM
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i think that the barad-dur much stronger is then orthanc ( as a building ), but that if saruman had the ring and the ring betrays him, orthanc can become more powerful then barad dur, saruman is a good tacticus two, so he will be a dark lord just like morgoth and sauron, maybe even stronger then sauron ( after a while )( he s a maia two ) if the ring would be lost and sauron and saruman (after he used the ring) would duel, then i think saruman wold win ( after a long battle )
Acabar 06/Sep/2006 at 05:49 PM
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In Letter # 246, Tolkien actually addresses the possibility of a confrontation with Sauron in considerable detail. Here are some interesting excerpts:

"In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave."

Clearly, Frodo was not powerful enough to oppose Sauron, even with the Ring in his possession.

"Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of ’mortals’ no one, not even Aragorn."

Very interesting. So, it is as you surmise, simpsonim, that Sauron had influence over the Ring even when it was wielded by another. Yet Tolkien does not rule out that some other being of equal stature might overthrow Sauron, with the Ring in his or her possession. And as Vidum points out, Sauron was not impervious to fear. The remainder of the letter contemplates the case of a confrontation between Gandalf and Sauron.

"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him . . . It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end."

So, I think that it would be possible for Sauron to be overthrown through the use of the Ring. Indeed, if it were not so, then why would Sauron be afraid of who might appear in possession of his Ring. Great quote, Vidum. Mortals he need not fear, but those of his own order, he does. I also believe that Saruman might possibly oppose Sauron successfully.

In any case, the use of the Ring would bring about the victory of Evil, no mater who wore it. Yet the power of the Ring could be used against him, although it required a great deal of power and strength. And! - importantly - it required a commitment to the domination of another’s will - to evil.

simpsonim 08/Sep/2006 at 11:47 AM
Sage of Isengard Points: 6521 Posts: 5563 Joined: 27/Aug/2005

Well it looks I was wrong...

Great quotes Acabar. Now, well, I must agree that overthrowing Sauron was possible since Tolkien himself said it although it still does not seem to logical to me but if the Master pictured it that way then that’s the way it is...

Ofcourse that evil would provail in the end no matter who has the ring and as long as the Ring remains the foundation of barad-dur will stand and Barad-dur for me symbolises that there is still great evil that threatens ME. Only when the ring is destroyed and the foundation of Barad-dur crumbles ME would be free of the great evil of Sauron.

Did we clear up and agree about everything now?  If yes....

Great topic Vidum and a great discussion guys, especially Acabar and Tirion . Was a pleasure to be a part of it

Lord_Vidύm 08/Sep/2006 at 02:52 PM
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Simps, BaradDur was not standing due to the Ring’s existence. Don’t forget it was unbuilt after Sauron’s fall by the Last Alliance, and it was rebuilt later on. That means that, although the Ring existed, BaradDur could fall. Barad Dur just fell when the Ring was destroyed, because the Earth shaked (great Earthquake), and the spell that kept it strong (yet not unfallen) left it.
nEUroTIc 09/Sep/2006 at 08:55 AM
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cister-barad-dur is not much stronger than orthanc..you may remember that when gandalf and the rest of the fellowship arrived at isengard after the cleansing by the ents. treebeard remarked that he couldnt even make a scratch on the surface of orthanc.
simpsonim-what lord vidum explains is right

simpsonim 09/Sep/2006 at 09:21 AM
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Vidum - I said ’foundation’ of Barad-dur. The foundation of Barad-dur was conected to the existence of The One Ring. When the one ring was destroyed the foundation of Barad-dur was destroyed too and that’s why barad-dur fell... atleast I understood it that way.
btw. an Earthquake cannot destroy the foundation wouldn’t you agree? Unless the very ground under the foundation splits apart.

Lord_Vidύm 11/Sep/2006 at 01:21 AM
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Well Simps an earthquake could not make a Gate to be splintered into hundrends of pieces.It should have been over 9Richter

Then I must have misunderstood you. Foundations you mean the pieces of the tower that were under the surface? I didn’t remember of BaradDur falling from its foundations. But OK.

simpsonim 11/Sep/2006 at 01:21 PM
Sage of Isengard Points: 6521 Posts: 5563 Joined: 27/Aug/2005

Vidum - I thought this would be a bit harder to find but it took me a few seconds so here you go:

"I still hope for victory, but not by arms. For into the midst of all these policies comes the Ring of Power, the foundation of Barad-dur, and the hope of Sauron." LotR RotK, The last Debate

That is Gandalf talking and it is clearly seen that Barad-dur was ’built’ on the power of The One Ring and it’s existance makes Barad-dur so powerfull and strong. It is once later mentioned the foundation of Barad-dur, that Barad-dur shaked from it’s foundation and it was when Frodo put on the ring in Sammath Naur.

So the conection of the Ring and the foundation of Barad-dur is clearly seen. I’m sure there are most quotes where Gandalf says it more directly cause I remember them but I don’t know in which book they are. This quote and that that other case I told you about are only from the RotK.

SD_Morgoth 12/Sep/2006 at 02:41 AM
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king_dain 16/Sep/2006 at 08:29 PM
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does the ring actually call out to sauron or does sauron just have some sence of where the ring is at all time and does it also call out to sauron or sauron and the ringraiths or does it just call out to sauron then sauron tell um where it is. and if it does call out to sauron why didnt it call out when it was close to its master and then sauron will no its close and look for it
simpsonim 17/Sep/2006 at 07:18 AM
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Ah king-dain - no one knows.

I think Sauron didn’t know where exactly the ring was, he couldn’t have cause if he did he wouldn’t have to find information on it’s where abouts. He however sences the ring, and so do the ring wraights. When the ringwraights are close to the ring they sence it, and I think Sauron senced it from a bit more far away...

Also, the ring was much easyer to sence when it was worn, when it, so to say, chanelled it’s power through a wielder. That’s why Sauron senced it so suddenly and so strongly when Frodo put it on his finger in the Sammath Naur, and that’s why the ringwraights were attracted to it when Frodo wore it on Weathertop.

lalla 19/Sep/2006 at 05:40 AM
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I think this idea of the ring with a will of its own is simply fantastic. Especially if we remember that, when Tolkien wrote "The Hobbit", he didn’t have a clear idea of where his story was going to take him. So, the Ring had a will of its own also in the writer’s hands!

Anyway, being Tolkien very religious, I think it’s right to say that the evil in his works had a tention to Selfdestruction. After all, the only God, Eru, had already seen and decided everything in his Mind. He knows. And the end, without knowing, the evil just does what God wants.

simpsonim 21/Sep/2006 at 12:56 PM
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I would disagree with you in your last statement lalla. I don’t think that evil does what Eru wants.

I think that Evil does what evil wants to do but Eru knows what the evil is going to do since he knows all, the past the present and the future,  and the plans according to it making evil ’a tool in his hands with which he will do greatness greater then anyone can imagine’. That in ’’ signs is a line from Ainulindale that Eru said to Ainur. I only paraphrased it though since I don’t remember it exactly and don’t have Silm here

Duiel 23/Sep/2006 at 09:28 AM
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I wanna return to an earlier discussion here:

Quote: Originally posted by halfir on Wednesday, August 30, 2006

Phil_d_one: I have crossed swords with you and others before on the issue of Divnine Intervention, for in relying on Letter # 192 you omit the crucial aspect that the Divine Intervention was only effected because Frodo had shown a freely willed act of mercy towards Gollum at an earlier stage. That is why Eru could intervene. If Frodo’s action had not taken place then such Divine Intervention would indeed have made him a puppet, and the whole story would be a valueless exercise in predestination. But Frodo - of his own free will, as when he acceptedt the Quest, by that merciful action towards Gollum  enabled the intervention of Eru.So to quote Letter # 192 without also  quoting Letters # 181 and # 191 is a very misleading exercise.



Now, there’s one character which I think should also be mentioned here: Sam. It was indeed Sam’s mercy in the end which also allowed Gollum’s betrayal-destruction-destruction of Ring:

Sam’s hand wavered. His mind was hot with wrath and the memory of evil. It would be just to slay this treacherous, murderous creature, just and many times deserved; and also it seemed the only safe thing to do. But deep in his heart there was something that restrained him: he could not strike this thing lying in the dust, forlorn, ruinous, utterly wretched. He himself, though only for a little while, had borne the Ring, and now dimly he guessed the agony of Gollum’s shrivelled mind and body, enslaved to that Ring, unable to find peace or relief ever in life again. But Sam had no words to express what he felt.
Kaulargorn 25/Sep/2006 at 12:24 PM
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I don’t think evil’s will works in a such a  way that Eru would like to work.This would mean that the so many deaths throughout all these wars against Morgoth and during the war of the ring were Eru’s will.Something that definitely makes Eru himself evil.What if Morgoth won,or Frodo didn’t destroy the ring?They were both quite probable till the last moment.It is obvious that there two opposing wills throughout Tolkien’s work,good and evil,an idea that is not new.So many religions and philosophies about life are based on this thought like christianity and "black and white"
simpsonim 26/Sep/2006 at 10:59 AM
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I do agree with you in some point but there is one big difference Kaulargor in that typicall religion "back and white" relationship.

The black would be Melkor and afterwards Sauron and the white would be the Valar. But ERU is special, Eru created all including Melkor and Sauron and he KNOWS all.

But the difference between knowning all and all being under your will is huge. All the people and all creatures and all evil has what is called "free will" and each of them act upon that free will, and Eru isn’t evil and he gave Arda to the Vlaar to be under their control and he can’t interfere all the time in teh work of Valar just as tzhe Valar can’t interfere in the works of the children of Eru all the time. They have to let them go and let them do what they wish. They only hop in when an evil greater then them, out of their control that is of higher species and that cannot possibily be overthrown by elves and mortals comes and then they clean that up and even them Eru doesn’t obviously intervene but lets the Valar handle it...

Eru planned everything and Eru saw everything and Eru knows all. And that’s why everything evil and bad eventually comes to good and good always provailes but there has to be a balance and Eru cannot smithe everybody that does evil.

Kaulargorn 28/Sep/2006 at 01:08 PM
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Eru didn’t create good,but he gave his children free will.With that free will Melkor did his evil acts and with that very free will the rest of the Valar fought him?It wasn’t Eru the one who made Melkor to play the bad guy,it was Melkor’s choice,as it was elves’ choice to leave Aman, as it was Easterlings’ choice to fight for Sauron.If it was all staged by Eru as you say, then he destroys free will and in the end he does what Sauron does with the orcs.Eru wrote his music in which there was no evil.It was Melkor’s music which had evil inside
simpsonim 29/Sep/2006 at 11:25 AM
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You contrare me on something I didn’t say... I practically said the same thing you did...

The thing is... Eru knows all. He knows everything that will happen and it is HIS free will. He gave that same free will to all his children and they do as they wish and that’s why there is evil and murders and treachorys and everything but those are all small things in the eyes of Eru, the thing that he doesn’t want to intervene but leaves them to the authority of the valar who are on Arda for the purpose of keeping it evil-free and the evil is also a choice of free will which he gave so he doesn’t stop it...

But in the end, all the major actions and all the historycal moments were in his plan and he knew that they will come and be as they did and it always turns out to good no matter what evil in between happened. He looks, so to say, on the big picture... And everybody is in the end his tool to do good but not under his direct control, everybody does what tehy want to using their free will but in the end it always turns out as Eru planmned.

It just does... To prove Eru wrong would be to undo Ea, "Creation".

Telemanes 30/Sep/2006 at 01:42 PM
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i agree

free will is inherent in all creatures and is shown so many times. The Istari have the power to control to make good, but choose not to because the good made wouldn’t be right because of how it came about.saruman is the exception that makes the rule as he aims to control through the ring, controlling the shire as sharky, controlling theoden through wormtongue etc and is eventually defeated.

when meeting the hobbits on the way to buckland, glorfindel refuses to advise frodo in case he changes any decision made by him and thus taking away his free will.

at ?amon hen? the companions cant advise frodo on what to do next as it has to be a free choice on his part, the exception again being boromir who tries to force his plans on frodo and ends up dying.

im still trying to make sense of this subject myself from what ive read so excuse me if i dont make sense or seem to be waffling aimlessly!

simpsonim 01/Oct/2006 at 06:19 AM
Sage of Isengard Points: 6521 Posts: 5563 Joined: 27/Aug/2005
lalla 04/Oct/2006 at 06:20 AM
Garment-crafter of Lothlorien Points: 627 Posts: 109 Joined: 05/Sep/2006

Ok. God (in Tolkien’s world Iluvatar) knows what everyone will freely decide to do. I’m Catholic and this is part of our religion. You have free will, and God knows everything. You’re responsible for what you do.

So evil does what evil wants, true, but at the end it fulfills God’s plans.

simpsonim 04/Oct/2006 at 10:24 AM
Sage of Isengard Points: 6521 Posts: 5563 Joined: 27/Aug/2005

Well ... yes, I agree completely  

All those big posts and you summerized so wonderfully ...

Telemanes 05/Oct/2006 at 01:51 PM
Apprentice of Minas Tirith Points: 193 Posts: 16 Joined: 26/Sep/2006

but lalla you’ve got to imagine life without a fixed religion, as ME is an imaginary world without christianity!there was no catholic church in middle earth as there were different species with there own beliefs instead of in the real world where man is the only intelligent species.

i mostly agree with you, but you have to imagine yourself in tolkeins world of fantasy!

simpsonim 08/Oct/2006 at 08:42 AM
Sage of Isengard Points: 6521 Posts: 5563 Joined: 27/Aug/2005

Well, the only thing I see different Telemanes is that in ME, or better to say Arda the god’s are known. The elves are sure about their exsistance and they are visible and tangible and show them selves from time to time. When you know something it’s not a religion anymore, it just IS.

And in ME anyone could believe anything they wished but Eru and the Valar ARE and that is a fact from which we start whereas in RL we start from - "If there is God."

*arwenudomiel* 19/Oct/2006 at 03:11 AM
Banned Points: 469 Posts: 135 Joined: 26/Aug/2006
Im going to put a complete twist on things here and give my opinion. I don’t think the ring had a will of its own at all, i think it was actually the will of the person who wore the ring! Think of the ring as temptation, and the ring bearer as someone who will eventually give in to temptation, just like all living things, as it is our nature. Tolkien could have been trying to portray the LoTR as a lesson about not giving in to temptation. Frodo was tempted to use the ring many times, and at the beginning, when he first aqquired the ring, he did use it a couple of times, but(supposedly) learnt his lesson at weather top! Ok now im babbling but its just my warped opinion so there we go.