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noldor mccrissi 27/Sep/2006 at 06:14 AM
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I basically just want to know information about Moria. When it was Built?

How long did the dwarves live there in piece before the goblins came?

Why did the dwarves of Moria get along well with the elves of Hollin when other dwarves hate elves and have no buisness with them?

Was the city of dwarrowdelf just made up of pillars and the dwarves slept on the ground or were there houses. 

Alcarináro 27/Sep/2006 at 12:47 PM
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It was built a bit after the Dwarves awoke. They awoke some time before the First Age began, but exactly when is not specified.

The Goblins didn’t take over Moria from the Dwarves. The Balrog did, alone. This happened in Third Age year 1980, when the Dwarves were exploring a mithril vein and breached the cavern where the Balrog had hid. The Goblins arrived 500 years after the Dwarves were driven out by the Balrog.

Dwarves don’t hate all Elves. They have ’reason’ to hate most of the ones that remain in the Third Age (and those have likewise the same ’reason’ to hate the Dwarves back), but the Elves of Eregion were Noldor, with whom the Dwarves had always had fairly decent relations.

No, it was not made up of pillars. Don’t trust the films.
sacredfeminine 27/Sep/2006 at 01:16 PM
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The dwarves and elves used to be friends, those were the days, we all had fun then. But now its sad with all this bad press about the films, admittably the dwarrowdelf was not factually illustrated to the letter. but when seen in the film it is an awefilled sight if ever i saw one, i mean theres not that much to go on and its all down to interpretation really.
Oin 27/Sep/2006 at 05:12 PM
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sacredfeminine: This is a lore forum - if you want to discuss why the movies are getting a bad light so much, that is for a discussion in the movies forum. Please keep PJ and his "films" in that forum. Thanks!

Elenhir: The Dwarves awoke during the First Age, just before the Sun arose/became visible, depending on which text you read.
noldor mccrissi 28/Sep/2006 at 12:11 PM
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Thanks, but in the books it only says there is pillars as well, not just in the movies.

"He raised his staff, and for a instant there was blaze like a flash of lighting. Great shadows sprang up and fled, and for a second they saw a vast roof far above their heads upheld by many mighty pillars hewn of stone. Before them and on either side stretched a huge empty hall; its black walls, polished and smooth as glass, flashed and glittered."

I’ve highlighted the parts that say the hall has many pillars and is empty

Aganaphel 28/Sep/2006 at 01:37 PM
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I think Dwarves ALWAYS had to have good relations with their neighbours, just for economic reasons. They had to eat something in their halls of stone and to exchange their gems and precious metals for food.

In the Second Age the Dwarves of Moria likely had such a connection with the Elves of Eregion, later with the Elves of Lorien.

Erebor dwarves were friends of Dale people, those of the Blue Mountains likely traded with Mithlond and before TA 1975 with Men of Arnor as well.
KingODuckingham 28/Sep/2006 at 08:17 PM
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I think the reason you were thinking of Moria being taken over by orcs is from the Chamber of Mazarbul text Gandalf reads, when Balin and his followers are attacked by orcs, and hold out until every last one is killed. But then too the Balrog was there, eventually--most likely woken back up by the battle, because there is no way Balin and his dwarves lasted seven years without noticing a big angry Balrog actively roaming the halls.
Alcarináro 28/Sep/2006 at 08:33 PM
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Aganaphel, when the Dwarves and Elves developed their bad relations over a certain incident, it was between neighbors. And judging by the law that Dwarves were not to enter Lothlorien, I highly doubt there were good relations of any kind.
You seem to be implying that all Dwarves are stonemasons, and that the race is incapable of farming and hunting food for itself. Nonsense!

kingoduckingham, likewise how would they have lasted so long with Orcs inhabiting Moria? They didn’t explore everything. We have no reason to believe that the Balrog ever went back to sleep. Also, note that the Balrog is not ’big’ to the degree you think.

Frodo caught glimpses of stairs and arches, and of other passages and tunnels, sloping up, or running steeply down, or opening blankly dark on either side.’ (FotR, A Journey in the Dark)
There were now no openings to other galleries or tunnels on either side, and the floor was level and sound, without pits or cracks. Evidently they had struck what once had been an important road; and they went forward quicker than they had done on their first march.’ (ibid)
The series of halls you mention, noldor mccrissi, are like a highway. You don’t sleep on the highway, but away from it, in the case of the Dwarves in smaller halls that lead to smaller halls that lead to smaller halls.
KingODuckingham 28/Sep/2006 at 09:03 PM
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ElenhirOh certainly. Orcs weren’t there either, when Balin got there.    Otherwise why would the attack have come from outside, as an orc shot Balin near Kheled-Zaram. It is said they barred the gates and held them off across the bridges. I also understand that they did not explore everything, but the Balrog apparently had, or most of it (at least he knew where the Endless stair was from the lowest point) and if he was awake and roaming, how in the world could he not have found the dwarves at some point over seven-odd years.

As to his do you know what "degree of big" I am thinking of? I happen to have read sources saying the Balrog would have been about 7-8 feet in height. But that doesn’t invalidate my calling him big, especially in relation to his dwarven foes.
Aganaphel 29/Sep/2006 at 03:16 PM
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Elenhir Celeborn must have felt particularly bitter toward the Dwarves, because he was a kinsman of Thingol. Un UT it is told that while Galadriel passed through Moria on her way from Ost-in Edhil to Lorien, Celeborn refused to enter the mines, as he hated the Dwarves too much. Galadriel was once the lady of Eregion, so I believe she must have remembered the old friendship.

I think there is no reason to say that friendly relations between Moria and Lorien had not existed before TA 1800. Before this time, it was Amroth who was King of Lorien, not Celeborn. Amroth might have had decent relations with the Dwarves in Moria.
In TA 1800 two things happened:
1."the Dwarves stirred up the evil in Moria" and Amroth and Nimrodel were lost.
2. Celeborn become Lord of Lorien, so sure no Dwarf was welcome there since

As for farming, I don’t think Dwarves were ever good at it. If they had a possibility to buy food, they would do it and concentrate on their mining. They were exclusively children of Aule, not of Yavanna.
noldor mccrissi 30/Sep/2006 at 09:16 AM
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Elenhir, the halls are not a highway because, it is the city of Dwarrowdelf not the Highway of Dwarrowdelf.

 "’these are not holes,’ said gimili.’this is the great realm and city of dwarrowdelf." TFOTR a journey in the dark page 414

As Gimili says they are not holes and I don’t believe they are a highway either and I believe that much trade went on here in days of old but this is just speculation

Cigfa 30/Sep/2006 at 03:52 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by noldor mccrissi on Saturday, September 30, 2006

As Gimili says they are not holes and I don’t believe they are a highway either and I believe that much trade went on here in days of old but this is just speculation

Obviously, since they were friends of the Elves, they would’ve had Trade back in the day.

Durin of Moria 02/Oct/2006 at 01:34 AM
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I think Moria, which is Khazad-dum is build by Aule before the awakening of the dwarves. It is the place where the seven fathers of dwarves were set to sleep.
Oin 02/Oct/2006 at 02:38 PM
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Cigfa: If you are going to quote from somebody else’s post, you need to add at least 200 characters of your own writing. Otherwise, it is considered spamming - please do not do so in the future. Thanks!

And for the record, HoME XII: Of Dwarves and Men, we are told that during the Second Age the Dwarves’ primary source of food was through trade with Men. I think it also mentions they were capable of growing their own food in Moria, but it wasn’t anything diverse or spectacular.
bukkworm 03/Oct/2006 at 10:06 AM
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Moria Moria, when was taou made?

Moria Moria, what hides in your shade?

Moria Moria, in you what was made?

Moria Moria, home of the dwarves,

Moria Moria, how were you overrun?

Moria Moria, from whence did the Bane of Durin come?

Moria Moria, when shall you be city of the dwarves agein?

I thought this up myself as a description of Moria in my own thoughts.

God 03/Oct/2006 at 06:13 PM
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Moria Moria, when was thou made?  The date is uncertain, but sometime during the first age by Durin the Deathless.
Moria Moria, what hides in your shade?  At least one balrog (I doubt more than that) until it was slain by Gandalf.  A fair amount of goblins also inhabit the ruined halls of Khazad-Dum, it’s impossible to say how many for sure, but it’s likely to be a fair amount.
Moria Moria, in you what was made?  Hard to say exactly what was crafted here, but Khazad-Dum was a large mine as well as grand Dwarven capital.  We can assume that some production was done there as well, but as to what exactly, we have no real information.
Moria Moria, home of the dwarves,  Indeed it was, until it was abandoned by them after the release of Durin’s Bane in approximately III 1981.  It remained uninhabited by Dwarves except for a brief period of time when Balin and his folk reclaimed it temporarily in III 2989, until their eventual defeat by the hands of the Goblins.  For over a thousand years, Khazad-Dum was lost to the Dwarves.
Moria Moria, how were you overrun?  As I’ve stated above, it was abandoned in fear of the Balrog.  About 500 years later the goblins of the Misty Mountains, as well as orcs and trolls under the will of Sauron started to pile into Moria.  No Dwarves were ever actually "overrun" by force.
Moria Moria, from whence did the Bane of Durin come?  The Dwarves only delved too deep.  Their digging must have unlocked a chamber in which Durin’s Bane had lived unawares.  How exactly the Balrog got there is unclear.
Moria Moria, when shall you be city of the dwarves agein?  According to the Encyclopedia of Arda (where I got most of this information) it says that long after the War of the Ring, the Dwarves of Durin’s line eventually assaulted and defeated the legions of goblins, orcs, and trolls in Moria, permanently reclaiming the city for their own, and restoring it to its former glory.  No exact dates are given, however.

Hope that helps!

Geirve 05/Oct/2006 at 06:09 AM
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Aganaphel and Elenhir, we have some textual basis to suspect there were good relations between Moria and Lórien before Celeborn moved there (as Aganaphel rightly suspects). They were military allies - together, they helped the foces of Elrond suppounded by Sauron in Eregion:

"for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth." (UT, History of Galdriel and Celeborn, Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn)

and apparently they marched together from the siege of Barad-dur:

"We have no hope of help: Moria and Lórien are now far behind, and Thranduil four days’ march ahead." (UT, The disaster of the Gladden Fields)

Aganaphel, very good observations on dwarven economy. Dwarves, whenever they could, preferred not to grow their own food, and relied on trade. Dwarves of Blue Mountains traded with hobbits:

"The Shire-hobbits have no very great need of metals, but the Dwarfs are agents; and in the east of the Mountains of Lune are some of their mines (as shown in the earlier legends) : no doubt, the reason, or one of them, for their often crossing the Shire." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #154)

and Moria, before Sauron’s successes in II Age, had a close economic relationship with Men of the North:

"Thus there grew up in those regions the economy, later characteristic of the dealings of Dwarves and Men (including Hobbits): Men became the chief providers of food, as herdsmen, shepherds, and land- tillers, which the Dwarves exchanged for work as builders, roadmakers, miners, and the makers of things of craft, from useful tools to weapons and arms and many other things of great cost and skill." (HoME-12, Of Dwarves and Men)
Aganaphel 05/Oct/2006 at 03:24 PM
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Thank you for kind words, o Balin son of Fundin!
Oin 07/Oct/2006 at 10:31 AM
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Geir: I don’t think the quote from UT: The Disaster of the Gladden Fields refers to the fact that they marched together. Rather, it refers to the geographical location of each of them in relation to where Isildur’s force was at that point. Lorien and Moria were both roughly the same distance behind him, and clearly more than 4 days away by march. And likewise, the realm of Thranduil, which at that point was further south than it would be at the time of the War of the Ring, was four days march away to the north and east.
Durin of Moria 17/Oct/2006 at 11:16 PM
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I basically just want to know information about Moria. When it was Built?

How long did the dwarves live there in piece before the goblins came?

Why did the dwarves of Moria get along well with the elves of Hollin when other dwarves hate elves and have no buisness with them?

Was the city of dwarrowdelf just made up of pillars and the dwarves slept on the ground or were there houses. 

It is built in the first age by Durin. They lived there for more than three ages. At that time, dwarves doesn’t hate elves. The elves of Hollin are Noldor from Beleriand and they settled close to Khazad-dum, so trade begin and also friendship.
Earendin 21/Oct/2006 at 01:09 AM
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It is true that the Dwarves had been living in Knazad-Dum for Three or Two Ages of Arda.They had a good relationship with the Noldor in Eregion but they had become greedy and this led to their doom.They digged so deep that they awoke a Balrog of Morgoth.

Endril 21/Oct/2006 at 04:47 AM
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The dwarfs were sometimes greedy indeed, not greedy like the humans, but I would say that they like working in the mines, digging and making large halls that contained pecious stones. I think they loved the beauty of the metal and stones inside the ground.
Atlus 22/Oct/2006 at 01:58 PM
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I think the dwarves were a mighty and proud race full of courageous miners and spirited adventurers. I dont think that anyone would have done any different if they were in thier positions. By this I mean any race. If they were as well as adapted to the caves and dark as the dwarves that it. Who dosnt fancy a pretty gem and a way to promote trade and industrialization. I just think the dwarves were doing what came natural and doing somthing they loved as well. The caves and mines in the earth where more the home than aything on the outside of the mountains could be. They may have dug to a Balrog and sealed their doom,but it was not if they did it on purpose. They didnt seek it out and they certainly wouldnt have risked their lives and home to do soemthing of that nature. I dont think they went of search of glory and gold next to a balrog. Anyways these are my opinions and what not see feel free to debate or say what you wish. I dont mind.
eldarommen 22/Oct/2006 at 02:50 PM
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Hi, folks! I’m newbe... (shy) And i have a question: Is it possible to find any kind of the map of Moria? You see, the problem i have finding LOTR maps in the internet is that there ARE good, well-made maps, but they are mostly Shire maps, general Middle Earth maps, Beleriand maps... and i found no map of Moria, or map of Lothlorien for instance... Can you tell me where i can get good map of Moria? It would be good if this map was made by JRRT himself, or made on basis of his drawings. On one of the sites of my country i have found M.E. map, where Neldoreth was to the south of MORDOR...
ellemir 23/Oct/2006 at 12:01 AM
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Aha! And adding to the previous post by Eldarommen, i must admit i do not really KNOW which maps were originally made by Talkien, which - on basis of his works (drawings), and which maps are absolutely not connected with JRRT. I mean they are made by someone who has read the books and decided to create his map. In a way he seems it would be ok... Some of these maps are great, but i used to find somewhat... strange maps.

So, can you prompt me the link with the decent ME maps? And it would really be cool, if those maps were not only of Beleriand etc. I would really LOVE to find the map of Moria...
Oin 23/Oct/2006 at 07:55 PM
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Durin of Moria: If you are going to quote another member in your post, you must add at least 200 characters of your own materials. Otherwise, it is considered spamming. Please do not do so in the future. Thanks!

eldarommen: Welcome to the Plaza! The reason you have found no map of Moria is because none exists. Tolkien made drawings of the three mountains of Moria, but not the kingdom itself. Any maps that do exist of the kingdom were not drawn by he or his son, Christopher, and therefore are unreliable.

eldarommen 23/Oct/2006 at 10:17 PM
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Aw.. Thank you, Oin. Now i see. Well, this is sad, of course. I would really like to see in detail the greatest dwelling of the sons of Durin. But... Anyway, Moria will stay the one of the greatest misteries of the Middle Earth. Just like it was planned by Professor, probably. Maybe there still should be some stories, legends and places, that are misterious and dim even now. That makes the LOTR story even more attractive... What do you think, my friends? Thank you, counselor.

iLOTR 30/Oct/2006 at 03:55 PM
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Now what always confused me was where the Balrog came from. I mean I know that it says that the dwarves were to greedy and dug to far and such, but I mean really, was the Balrog just buried underground waiting to be dug up? That’s what doesn’t make sense to me, I just can’t invision a Balrog staying calmly underground and not doing anything until the dwarves disturb it by digging it up. And would you usually find a Balrog buried underground anyways? Well if anyone can answer any of my questions that would be great.
KingODuckingham 30/Oct/2006 at 05:07 PM
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Hi, iLOTR, and welcome to the plaza.
I don’t know if you have read The Silmarillion, but it tells the tale of the First Age of Middle Earth. At the end, there is a big battle and the bad guys are beaten, and one of the Balrogs fled from where the battle was happening and hid under the Misty Mountains, before Moria was ever built. Then it fell asleep. It is said that the dwarves digging too deep is what woke the Balrog up. One does not usually find Balrogs buried underground, it was just hiding from the forces of good.
Maegolfin 31/Oct/2006 at 10:32 PM
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Even though we are given no maps of Moria, I am sure it must have been HUGE!  By the way it it explained, there must have been countless huge halls and passageways and mines that went on for a very long way.  Even if the Dwarves tried to draw a map of it, they may not have succeeded, because the place was so big!  They lived there for thousands of years, and continually delved in all directions (except up, of course).  They woke the Balrog, and that tells you how deep they went.  A Balrog, fleeing from the angry Valar, wouldn’t have messed around with his depth.  So the Dwarves must have been a decent way down in the earth to find him.  So in other words, Khazad-dum was probably the most extensive and hugest indoor kingdom in the world, possibly even too complex and huge for a map to capture!
iLOTR 02/Nov/2006 at 03:29 PM
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Thanks for the clarification kingoduckingham, I did read the Silmarillion once, but it was several years ago and I did not remember that. Now everything makes a lot more sense. I’m glad someone could answer my question. Thanks again.
Mithrandír 07/Nov/2006 at 08:47 AM
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Moria was built before the Dwarves came.
it was the Balrog that took over the Mines Of moria, not the Goblins. it was found when the Dwarves dug gredily for more and more Mithril in the Mines.
Elros Tar-Minya 08/Nov/2006 at 06:52 AM
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In the Silmarillion Khazad-dum, the Dwarrowdelf or called by the elves Hadhodrond was the greatest of all the halls of the Dwarves. It is said in App A, LOTR that it was founded by Durin the Deathless in caves located above Zheled-Zaram and that he came there after awaking from his long sleep alone. Moria wasn’t named Moria until after the Dwarves had fled the Balrog.

In response to an earlier enquiry in this thread, the Orcs atacked from outside of Moria yes, as they had come down from their own towns and holes located further north in the Misty Mountains. I can find no reference to it but I do not beleive that the Orcs ever inhabited Moria, it was purely the abode of the Balrog and as Gandalf says ’nameless things....but I will bring no report to darken the light of day’, and that they were sent there only to capture Mithril for Sauron and also to waylay the Fellowship on its way south. Being originally a servant of Morgoth as was Sauron the Balrog would obviously know that the Orcs were originally bred to service of Morgoth and as long as they didn’t harm it, it would leave them be.
Ollyorin Dagda 08/Nov/2006 at 01:10 PM
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Gothmorg: Moria was built before the dwarves got there?
Elros Tar-Minya: The orcs inhabited Moria. They seized the oppurtunity when the dwarves fled. But they weren’t really in anyone’s service, save the balrog. They cowered in fear before the great demon. They weren’t to my knowledge there to get mithril for Sauron. Plus, the Balrog was free and had no master.
Vugar 08/Nov/2006 at 01:27 PM
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Ollyorin, I am just taking a guess, but I believe the "Dwarves" in question were Balin & Co. Gorthmog will have to confirm.

The Orcs did take it to their advantage to seize all mithril that they could find and in turn send it to Sauron as tribute.

"For here alone in the world was found Moria-silver, or true-silver as some have called it: mithril is the Elvish name...Of what they brought to light the Orcs have gathered nearly all, and given it in tribute to Sauron, who covets it." (A Journey in the Dark, FotR)
Elros Tar-Minya 08/Nov/2006 at 04:01 PM
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Ollyorin: Yes the balrog was free but would it not still hold its true alliegence to the Morgoth and Sauron who was the Leightenant of Morgoth?
Also into your other reply as stated in the Silmarillion before Durin there were only caves there, therefore could you say that Khazad-dum was actually built before then?
Qtpie 08/Nov/2006 at 08:23 PM
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Actually Elros Tar-Minya (welcome by the way ) Ollyorin is right. The Balrog has no Master except for Melko. The Balrogs served Melko exclusively, like when Melko cried for help when Ungoliant tried to devour him and the Balrogs came to his aid from afar. I don’t believe the Balrogs served Sauron, even though Sauron was the Lieutenant of Melko, Gothmog was the High-Captain of Angband.
Elros Tar-Minya 09/Nov/2006 at 10:59 AM
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Taragolloion and Ollyorin You may well be right on this. My only query is then why did the Orcs send all the MIthril to Sauron as a tribute if they were not in someway if there was no link between those in Moria and Sauron?

Surely the mere fact that the Orcs sent tribute to Sauron at all suggests some sort of collusion between the two in a similar way to Sauron and Shelob, they coexisted together merely because Sauron was happy with the status-quo and saw no reason to change it.

I realise that I have partly answered my own question here but I am interested to hear of other views on this.
Oin 14/Nov/2006 at 05:49 PM
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Elros Tar-Minya: The Orcs of Moria were indeed sent by Sauron during the third millenium of the Third Age to occupy Moria. The Orcs and Trolls were certainly servants of Sauron - but the Balrog who awoke and dwell there was not, or at least there is no evidence to suggest it. So while the Orcs were, the Balrog wasn’t, and there isn’t much evidence that the Balrog was giving the Orcs orders, either.
Arahir 17/Nov/2006 at 01:25 PM
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I havent any information for you, Noldor, but ah! Moria! As an elf, I generally do not like such places, but I made a promise to a friend, and it has been fulfilled. When next I go there, I hope the will be plenty of orc-throats to slit, for Not much has been happening in Lorien. Life there goes on, much as it has this past age, full of its own comings and goings. The sight of those trees will take the breath from you. Yet, they seem to be beginning to fade, just as we elves are,...sadly.........
Qtpie 17/Nov/2006 at 08:32 PM
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Welcome to the forum Arahir! Just a tip when you are posting in the Lore Fora, you have to generally post something that contributes to the discussion of the thread. I would suggest you read this thread:

Enjoy your stay!