Mordor Sinking

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Durin of Moria 30/Sep/2006 at 01:32 AM
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Why does the destrution of the one ring cause the sinking of Mordor in The Return of the King movie? Is there a reason or just the movie misleading? If it is the movie that is misleading, why doesn’t the orcs and servants of Sauron continue to attack the attacking Men in the book?
elendil elessar 30/Sep/2006 at 03:32 AM
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Well the Orcs and Trolls were under the dominion of Sauron will, when he was destroyed and his will left them they were in no shape to fight, they were stunned let’s say. The rest of Sauron forces, the Haradrim, Easterling and co continued to fight. As for the sinking of Mordor, I can’t say about the movie but in the book it never sunk, and I cannot see in what it could sink anyway. What happened was that what was built with the power of the One was destroyed with it (ie Barad Dur foundation).
Laielinwen 30/Sep/2006 at 04:27 AM
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The One Ring sank but that was about all... other than the feelings of those serving the Dark Lord! Who knows why PJ decided to make it sink in the film. I’ve not read his reasons for that and though I do have the Extended Editions I’ve not watched the commentary at that part to see if he tells. It does seem odd. Perhaps he was trying to show the finality of Sauron and his with the destroying of the ring. That would only be a guess though. I didn’t really enjoy that part in the movie. In fact it rather annoyed me.
geordie 30/Sep/2006 at 04:46 AM
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The movie is misleading. Maybe they should add something to that effect as a subtitle. Mordor does not sink itn the books; and in the books, the armies of Mordor still go on attacking the Men of the West. Until they are subdued.
Read the book and you’ll see.
Mirima 30/Sep/2006 at 08:59 AM
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If you look closely in the movie, the only part of Mordor that sinks is the area surrounding the black gate (and the gates themselves) where Sauron’s armies were standing, stopping just short of Aragorn’s army.  I agree that this was misleading, and I thought it a rather silly action on PJ’s part. 
noldor mccrissi 30/Sep/2006 at 11:27 AM
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In the movie Mordor does not sink, it is only the black gate and it doesn’t even sink the ground just collapses.

After you see the gate collapsing and leaving a hole in the ground the eagles and Gandalf comes to Frodos rescue IN MORDOR and Mount doom obviously doesn’t sink because Frodo and Sam are sitting on it, half of it just explodes

So only the black gate (where it happens Saurons army is standing), Barad - Dur and kind of mount doom(because it gets blown apart which would leave a hole in the ground) sink

 

 

Thorin Ruthanin 30/Sep/2006 at 12:24 PM
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The orcs and trolls stop fighting because Sauron no longer held his power over them and sense there master and had been destroyed so no sway was being held over them

and i remember in the book after sauron had been killed destroyed watever that mount doom was still blurting out smoke and lava even during Aragorns coronation i think it went something like this

"Even though Sauron had been defeated Mount Doom continued to bellow smoke " or somethin like that remember im just grasping from memory so forgive me if im wrong

Endril 30/Sep/2006 at 02:31 PM
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About the sinking thing, Mordor never sinks in the books. Also in the movie Aragorn and his small army remain on a piece of land that didn’t sunk. So hoh did they got out of there? No airplane came for them and also the eagles could never carry them all. Some parts of the movies are bad indeedand this is one of them.
noldor mccrissi 30/Sep/2006 at 02:36 PM
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Legolas the elf if you look in the movie all the land on one side does not collapse only the black gate falls into the ground. So they simply walked back to Minas Tirith.

If you had of read the whole forum you would know what collapsed and what didn’t

Jargoth 30/Sep/2006 at 07:33 PM
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i was wondering about that too because all of a sudden all of mordor just dissapears into a black hole and i was like what the crap at the movie theater. it is still a good movie i was just kind of wondering were did peter jackson get that. it still looked kind of cool.
Laielinwen 01/Oct/2006 at 12:50 AM
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The movie is misleading. Maybe they should add something to that effect as a subtitle. geordie

Perhaps they should add a Warning label:
Contents may be hazardous to your literary health and overall understanding of the author’s characters and story! Any resemblance to Tolkien’s works may or may not be intentional.

Durin of Moria 01/Oct/2006 at 01:22 AM
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But if Mordor did not sink, the orcs will still oust Aragorn and his men.
Phil_d_one 01/Oct/2006 at 05:58 AM
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One tiny improvement I’d suggest, Laie

Contents may be hazardous to your literary health and overall understanding of the author’s characters and story! Any resemblance to Tolkien’s works may or may not be intentional...but it probably isn’t

On a serious note, this seems to be further along Jackson’s policy of baseless extrapolation. For example, Tolkien gave us a confrontation between the Fellowship and wolves at Hollin, so Jackson had to give us a battle between the Rohirrim and hyena-dog-wolf hybrids he called Wargs. Tolkien told us that there were Mumakil at Pelennor, so Jackson has to have the Rohirrim charge at them. Similarly, Tolkien tells us that the Barad-dur, the foundation of which was the power of the One, crumbled on the One’s destruction, so Jackson has everything, including the ground itself, crumbling into a big black void.

Touche, Mr. Jackson
elendil elessar 01/Oct/2006 at 07:12 AM
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lol, what a subtle and delicate touch he has. Bravo PJ.
Aganaphel 01/Oct/2006 at 07:31 AM
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Lol! Briliant Laielinwen and Phil!

But leaving the movie aside, there is still one thing that I fail to understand in the BOOK, namely: Why did the Towers of the Teeth crumble?

And even as he spoke the earth rocked beneath their feet. Then rising swiftly up, far above the Towers of the Black Gate, high above the mountains, a vast soaring darkness sprang into the sky, flickering with fire. The earth groaned and quaked. The Towers of the Teeth swayed, tottered, and fell down; the mighty rampart crumbled; the Black Gate was hurled in ruin; and from far away, now dim, now growing, now mounting to the clouds, there came a drumming rumble, a roar, a long echoing roll of ruinous noise.

The foundations of Barad Dur were made with the Power of the One Ring back in the Second Age - when they crumbled, all the fortress crumbled. That makes sense.

Now, as far as I know, the Tower of the Teeth were built by Gondoreans in the Third Age, after Sauron lost the Ring. The rampart between them and the Black gate were built by Sauron very recently - after TA 2951. Again they couldn’t be built with the power of the One.

So, who did these structures crumble when the One was destroyed?
And why, for instance, Minas Morgul did not crumble?
Jargoth 01/Oct/2006 at 12:10 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Gimli Elfriend on Sunday, October 01, 2006


But if Mordor did not sink, the orcs will still oust Aragorn and his men.

if mordor did not sink then the orcs probebly lost all focus because there ruler had just died it is kind of what happens when you step on an ant hill everyone scatters out of control. so they weren’t really in focusing on Aragorns army

Jargoth 01/Oct/2006 at 12:15 PM
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Aganaphel Minas Morgul was once a Gondorian outpost so it wasn’t created by mordor it was later taken over by the orcs so the ring wasn’t used to help build it. so nothing happened when the ring was destroyed

but what happened to the orcs in Minas Morgul how did they figure out that the ring was destroyed?

Aganaphel 01/Oct/2006 at 01:35 PM
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Jargoth,I am sorry, but you seemingly misunderstood my question.

Minas Ithil was built by Gondoreans, that is right, but so were the Towers of the Teeth, Narchost and Carchost:
. High cliffs lowered upon either side, and thrust forward from its mouth were two sheer hills, black-boned and bare. Upon them stood the Teeth of Mordor, two towers strong and tall. In days long past they were built by the Men of Gondor in their pride and power, after the overthrow of Sauron and his flight, lest he should seek to return to his old realm.

So, again, why did the Towers of the Teeth crumble, while Minas Morgul didn’t?
Normally, only Barad Dur with foundations built with the Power of the One should have been ruined.
Jargoth 01/Oct/2006 at 06:23 PM
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do the books even mention anything about Minas Morgul crumbling? i haven’t read the books in a while so i don’t know.

Lord of the Rings 01/Oct/2006 at 08:19 PM
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do the books even mention anything about Minas Morgul crumbling?

No, it does not crumble, which is why Aganaphel is asking his question. Why would the Towers of the Teeth crumble and not Mins Morgul, if they are of the same origin.

My theory lies in the phrases "the earth rocked beneath their feet." and "The earth groaned and quaked.". It would seem that the destruction of the Ring caused an earthquake, most likely from the violent reaction of Orodruin. This geological upheaval somehow fractured the foundations of the towers and crumbled them. Minas Morgul, for whatever reason (higher mountains or more stable land between it and the mountain, or a better foundation, or whatever) was untouched.

Another possibility which just occurred to me is that perhaps the quake was caused by the Sauron’s death throws, so to speak. Since his attention was the Black Gate, the earth was badly affected their, groaning and quaking. Just a thought that hit me.
Oin 02/Oct/2006 at 02:31 PM
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Jargoth: Minas Morgul was burned by the Lords of the West after they passed the Cross-roads - according to the books it was ordered that no men were to dwell there for many years, even after the evil there would have been clensed.

All: We all know the movies are terrible in their representation and adaptation of Tolkien’s work. But this is a lore forum - if you want to bash PJ, and by all means do, please do it in the Movie forum. Thanks!
Aganaphel 02/Oct/2006 at 02:51 PM
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Lord of the Rings, I have another explanation. Sauron dwelt in Mordor long before he forged the One Ring in the middle of the Second Age. The pass of Morannon was the easiest and the nearest passage into his land. It makes imminent sense that the pass was guarded by watch-towers back in the Second Age. Probably the foundations of these original towers were also strengthened with the power of the One, just like the foundations of Barad-Dur. Then the towers were likely destroyed when the Last Alliance army stormed the Black Land after the battle of Dagorlad, or they were destroyed along with Barad-Dur.
In the Third age, the old foundations were probably used to build Carchost and Narchost - so when the Ring was destroyed the two towers crumbled along with Barad-Dur.
Minas Ithil, in contrast, must have been built by Isildur where no previous fortification stood.
All this makes sense, I think, the only problem is the unfortunate luck of any textual evidence...
Lord of the Rings 02/Oct/2006 at 04:16 PM
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The thing I like about the earthquake scenarion is that we are told that the earth shakes there. It is of course possible that this earthquake was cause by the collapsing towers, and not the other way around. It would explain why Minas Morgul was untouched.

Food for thought
Aganaphel 02/Oct/2006 at 05:06 PM
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But the earthquake was felt even in Minas Tirith, so Minas Morgul couldn’t have been unaffected:
. Then presently it seemed to them that above the ridges of the distant mountains another vast mountain of darkness rose, towering up like a wave that should engulf the world, and about it lightnings flickered; and then a tremor ran through the earth, and they felt the walls of the City quiver. A sound like a sigh went up from all the lands about them; and their hearts beat suddenly again.
Radagast Rasta 02/Oct/2006 at 06:48 PM
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I think that is just hollywood for you. I don’t recall Mordor sinking in the books or in the movies though. Maybe Mount Doom sunk because of the malic and power that the ring released when it was destroyed but other than that i cannot think of any reason why anything would sink.
Lord of the Rings 02/Oct/2006 at 10:40 PM
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I’d forgotten about that, Aganaphel. When I said unaffected, I meant "not destroyed by", and was referring mainly to the problem that if both Morgul and the Teeth are about the same distance from Orodruin, and that was the epicenter of the quake (a reasonable assumption, but only one I am considering), why did one fortress crumble and the other survive?

That is why I proposed the idea that a) the epicenter was actually around the Black Gate, because Sauron had had so much of his attention there (although this is somewhat problematic in the light of the fact that he withdrew his will from his servants there) and it was some sort of by product of him unleashing power during his death. b) that the mountains/geology around MM protected it better for whatever reason. And c) the earthquake didn’t cause the towers to collapse (your idea).

I personally still go with b, and the bit about feeling it in MT actually supports this, in my view. The quake was a widespread and powerful force; it destroyed the towers, and caused tremors all the way in MT (and most likely in MM as well, one would think).

And of course, there’s the possibility that MM did collapse, and Tolkien didn’t bother to mention it
Aganaphel 03/Oct/2006 at 03:51 AM
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LOTR, Minas Morgul did not collapse as can be seen from this quote (after the destruction of the Ring)
And Aragorn gave to Faramir Ithilien to be his princedom, and bade him dwell in the hills of Emyn Arnen within sight of the City.
‘For,’ said he, ‘Minas Ithil in Morgul Vale shall be utterly destroyed, and though it may in time to come be made clean, no man may dwell there for many long years.’


What a pity we have so little Second Age data on Mordor: how was it guarded, what was there at the Morannon...

By the way, there is another possible explanation. Note that Barad-Dur was rebuilt in record time: the rebuilding started only 70 years before the war of the Ring - and it was a HUGE place, dwarfung Isenguard, as we are told.
Morannon fortification - the rampart between the towers of the Teeth and the Black Gate in it, was also quite recent.

Sauron had no Ruling Ring to help him in his labors this time. But perhaps he used other Rings he had collected to himself? Dwarven Rings, for instance: after all they SHOULD have had other powers than to make people greedy. Perhaps they could be used in building - a thing that is very important for Dwarves. Or he could have used the Nine Rings - also they had to have other powers than to make men invisible.
If he used the Rings of Power in construction of Barad Dur and the Morannon - then these structures collapsed because the Rings - all of them connected with the One - suddenly lost Power. In the same way Lorien later faded, as the Ring which sustained it lost power.
Nausicaa 03/Oct/2006 at 07:05 AM
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I enjoy most of the destruction scene, but the whole earth caving in was a little much.  Its as if PJ fianlly remembered that the good army was supposed to be fighting on a hill...

I do love the barad-dur collapsing, though.

 

Arvellas 09/Oct/2006 at 05:33 PM
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Mordor?  Sinking?  Uh-whatta? *is glad she has not seen the third movie*  I can picture the new title now:

The Lord of the Rings
A twisted interpretation of the novel by J.R.R. Tolkien

I wonder how that would sell?  Really, this should have been put in the movie forum.  Maybe PJ was getting confused with the sinking of Beleriand, or even worse...he knew better but messed it up anyway.

Stiffler Vaneyar 10/Oct/2006 at 07:26 AM
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Wait, that’s exactly right, Arwen Skywalker. What happened to that big hill that the hobbits were rolling down in the last movie? Did the trolls move it? Hmm...maybe I’ll have to start up that Movie mayhem Explained, again...

Anyway, everyone in here keeps saying the same things over and over. Anyone mind trying to change it up a bit? After 30 posts, I think I understand that all of Mordor did not sink and that the orcs became wimps because Sauron was made into almost nothing.

Endril 10/Oct/2006 at 09:51 PM
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I want to ask a question. Wat about the other parts of the citadel of Mordor? Did the entire thing collapsed? In the movie I see that Morannon is still standing while the other construction go down falling or sinking. Why would the citadel fall and the gate remain?
Durin of Moria 28/Nov/2006 at 11:15 PM
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I guess the movie is misleading.
Loin Stealtharm 29/Nov/2006 at 12:27 AM
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Please stop refering to the movies in the book fora, the movies are so often misleading that it isn’t fun anymore . Here are the exact quotes from the book. The first one is in sam’s point of view, the second quote is in Aragorn/gandalf’s group point of view. These are the parts that make mordor ’sink’. About the troops. Orcs and trolls all flee immediatly, only the easterlings keep on fighting. But they don’t stand a chance of course.

There was a roar and a great confusion of noise. Fires leaped up and licked the roof. The throbbing grew to a great tumult, and the Mountain shook. Sam ran to Frodo and picked him up and carried him. out to the door. And there upon the dark threshold of the Sammath Naur, high above the plains of Mordor, such wonder and terror came on him that he stood still forgetting all else, and gazed as one turned to stone.

A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble, rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled. Fire belched from its riven summit. The skies burst into thunder seared with lightning. Down like lashing whips fell a torrent of black rain. And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgűl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.

And even as he spoke the earth rocked beneath their feet. Then rising swiftly up, far above the Towers of the Black Gate, high above the mountains, a vast soaring darkness sprang into the sky, flickering with fire. The earth groaned and quaked. The Towers of the Teeth swayed, tottered, and fell down; the mighty rampart crumbled; the Black Gate was hurled in ruin; and from far away, now dim, now growing, now mounting to the clouds, there came a drumming rumble, a roar, a long echoing roll of ruinous noise.
Chapter 3 & 4 (Mount Doom, the field of cormallen) Rotk, Lotr