Khand, Umbar and Harad

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Thaliondae Suchi-ru 08/Oct/2006 at 07:49 AM
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I have heard many people talk about these places andi have been thorourghly perplexed by them! Also i have heard of  Near-harad and Far-Harad. Far Harad is extremely south in Middle-EAryh is it not? If so what lies down there and beyod? Is there much known about it? Any knowledge about this would be greatly appreciated.
likuku 08/Oct/2006 at 10:17 AM
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Yes Thaliondae far Harad is on the south of Gondor and it is oppeset near Harad who is in the south too, but not so far to south. How I say down of Hard is Near-harad. Beside harad in one sidethere are Mordor and the plain of Gorgoroth. Behind Harad bthere are the land of Khand(about Khand isn’t much now, but they are truly allys of Mordor).
geordie 08/Oct/2006 at 10:20 AM
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You can read all there is to know in the Appendices in RotK. And prob. Unfinished Tales, too.
Laielinwen 08/Oct/2006 at 11:23 AM
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Khand is a south-east part of ME that is situated between the deserts of Near Harad and the wide fields of Rhun close to the southern marches of Mordor. The race there were called Variags. Not a lot is said in detail about Khand.

There is more info. to be found on Umbar. Some in TTT and some more in ROTK... Appendix  A also has info. It was a mighty fortress and it was first settled by Numenoreans returning to ME in the Second Age. It rapidly became a center of the Numenoreans sea-power. The story of Ar-Pharazon the Golden leaving from there to battle Sauron is a great story as well as what happened in Umbar after... regarding the Black Numenoreans and Earnil I. Of course I think most today because of the movies think of the Corsairs... There is a lot to read about Umbarís history.

The name given in Gondor to the lands south of the river Harnen is Harad. It means south. Also called Haradwaith which meant ílands of the South peoplesí. Yeah it was divided into two parts: Far and Near. (I always chuckle at that because it is all about your perspective isnít it?) hehe There were little kingdoms there that always seemed to be at war with Gondor during the third age.

Durin of Moria 12/Oct/2006 at 03:18 AM
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Take a look at this map-------- http://www.taivaansusi.net/roolipelit/lindefirion/parmandil_map.jpg

                           and this---------http://www.taivaansusi.net/roolipelit/lindefirion/political_map.jpg

                           and this-------------http://www.taivaansusi.net/roolipelit/lindefirion/me_mappamundi.jpg

                           and that’s all. From these maps, we can see that the place where it apears in Simarrillion, The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit is only a small part of Arda. But these maps may not be accurate. 

Phil_d_one 12/Oct/2006 at 07:54 AM
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The fact that those maps aren’t consistent with each other (let alone all that Tolkien told us) should be indicative enough of the value that we can give them, Durin of Moria. It is true that there is much more to Middle-earth than that which is given in the maps in TLotR and The Silmarillion, but Tolkien never provided us with much information about the rest of Middle-earth, since it was in the North-West that the defence against the Shadow was strongest, and hence there that the story is centred (we are provided with a map in HoME IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth, but this is far from complete or coherent with what was later written).

With regards the original query, it seems also that there are jungles in the South (Orcs sprang up them like apes in the dark forests of the South) and that apes existed there. It also seems clear that the inhabitants’ skin tones gradually darken the further South one goes, such that the men from the Near Harad are ’swarthy’ but those from the Far Harad are ’black men’.

God 12/Oct/2006 at 12:47 PM
Nobleman of Minas Tirith Points: 20544 Posts: 17247 Joined: 19/Feb/2002
Phil:  Is there a quote that you have where the men from Far Harad are labeled as "black men"?  Just curious, because when I read it here, I could see that "black" is used as a term describing their character, black as in evil, dark, depraved, than as a skin color.  Just my English-major sense was tingling, and I wanted to see what context it was in, since I’m not familiar with the reference myself.
Dragons Malice 15/Oct/2006 at 08:19 AM
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Jevesh I think this is the quote to which Phil was referring (it is taken from RotK, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields).

"He was now destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues."

Durin of Moria 20/Nov/2006 at 08:03 PM
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I know at least that east of Mordor is Ruhn, south of Ruhn is Khand, and west of Khand is Harad, which is also south of Mordor, while Khand is South-east of Mordor. Umbar is actually a Numenorean port in Harad that during the War of the Ring is under the control of the Consairs, who is an ally of Sauron.
Qtpie 20/Nov/2006 at 08:25 PM
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Durin of Moria: You mean Rhun right?
Cigfa 20/Nov/2006 at 08:28 PM
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Ruhn is actually spelled as ’Rhun’ but that’s alright, Durin of Moria . As far as I know, very little is known about the culture of those people. It’s possible that people in Umbar (Black Numenoreans) might’ve even had Haradrim blood as it appears that the two were allies. Of course, they also earned the name through practicing sacrilegious rituals to Melkor.
Qtpie 20/Nov/2006 at 08:47 PM
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The Easterlings came out of Rhun and were allied with the Dark Lord, but besides that not much more is known about Rhun. I wouldn’t be surprised if the people of Umbar had some Haradrim blood in them, since they were such close neighbors. These two cultures may have had some trade going on between them and some connections.
Skauril 21/Nov/2006 at 01:54 AM
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What is known for certain is that there were two pairs of massive mountain chains in Endor; one pair in the west, and the other in the east. The northern chain in the west was probably the Misty Mountains, while the respective mountain range in the southwest was known as the ’Grey Mountains’, apparently beginning just south of Umbar and stretching further south into Harad along the coastline (not to be confused with Ered Mithrin, the mountains north of Rhovanion, which were also known as the Grey Mountains).

The two mountain chains in the east were titled the Red Mountains (the northerneastern chain.. also known as the Orocarni, possibly the most massive mountain chain in all of Middle Earth), and the Yellow Mountains (the southeastern chain, of which almost nothing is known beyond its location, which is vaguely given, and its name).

This information is all from Tolkien himself and his descriptions of the geography of Middle Earth.

Regarding the unknown east, it was also stated in the books that many of the dragons that dwelled in the northwest of Middle Earth fled in the turmoil of the changing of the world. They were said to have fled far to the north and to the east, so it’s likely that several of them might have made their home on the slopes of the Orocarni. Just conjecture on my part (regarding the exact place where the dragons fled), but it would be logical.

We can also glean the whereabouts of all of the seven clans of the dwarves from Tolkien’s essay, ’Of Dwarves and Men’ (the essay can be found in The History of Middle Earth, volume 12, The Peoples of Middle-earth). The three clans that Tolkien described in detail dwelled in the northwest and took active part in the events of the ages; of course, referring to the Longbeard clan (Gimli was a longbeard, Thorin and most of the dwarven company were Longbeards etc), and the Firebeard & Broadbeam clans which lived in the Blue Mountains in western Eriador.

However, the remaining four dwarven clanfathers awoke far to the east, a thousand miles or more to the east of the Misty Mountains, i.e. far, far beyond the borders of the maps that were included with the books. They woke in two pairs: one pair in the south, and another in the north. It would again be reasonable to speculate that since the dwarves were fond of dwelling in mountainous regions, perhaps these eastern dwarf clans lived in the Red Mountains (Orocarni) in the north and the Yellow Mountains in the south.

Regarding the south, I can only repeat that which has already been said by others: there were jungles to the far south, and deserts in the northern areas (much like Africa). Umbar was the only location in the south that was described by Tolkien in any detail. However, (I think this was in the Silmarillion), Christopher Tokien said that the Numenoreans had sailed far south down the coast during the second age (all the way past the tip of southern Harad and beyond, to the east), colonizing the continent of Harad, or at least the coastal regions. Many if not all of these colonies undoubtedly fell into the hands of the savage peoples of the south during the third age.

 

Skauril 24/Nov/2006 at 08:45 AM
Scavenger of Mordor Points: 467 Posts: 163 Joined: 13/Dec/2004

One more little known fact about Harad (Near Harad, in this case):

"The river Harnen may also have been the western boundry of the Desert of Lostladen."

^ From: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Harnen

And:

"South of Mordor and Epel Duath in the northern Near Harad, west of Khand, was the Desert of Lostladen. The name appears on the second drawing of a map of that region."

^ From: http://www.annalsofarda.dk/annals-of-arda/Places-index/Places-ME/Desert-of-Lostladen.htm

I cannot verify the existence of this ’desert of Lostladen’ (nor its significance as a location, i.e. whether or not anything of note ever happened there), beyond the fact that it is said to have been marked on Tolkien’s early maps.