Secret Language

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Thefourfingers 15/Oct/2006 at 03:57 PM
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I know that Tolkien says that the language of the dwarves is secret and they do not teach it to anyone.  My question is, do you think that Tolkien added this to the story because he didn’t have time to develope the dwarven language as he did quenya and sindarian?  Or did he have the idea that the dwarves had a secret language from the begining?

Since I do not own The History of ME which details the various stages of the writting of the LOTR, I am very curious as to how this idea was developed.  Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

King Gothmog 15/Oct/2006 at 04:11 PM
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Personally I think Tolkien must have had the secret Dwarven language from the beginning or near the beginning.  Since while writting the novels he had no time limit that leaves his lack of translating the dwarven language up to laziness and I seriously doubt that he would let laziness get in the way of his well developed world.
Magradhaid 15/Oct/2006 at 08:33 PM
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Tolkien did partially develop Khuzdūl, which had a root-system similar to the structure of Semitic languages. Personally, I think he developed it less because he didn’t like the way it sounded as much as the Eldarin tongues. Other ’harsh’ languages like the Black Speech and Valarin are also limited in information.

As for their development, in the Lost Road back when Dwarves were named the Khuzūd, a footnote is written: "Aulė, in his love of invention, devised a new speech for the Dwarfs, and their tongues have no kinship with others; in use they have made them harsh and intricate, and few have essayed to learn them. In their converse with the Elves of old they used accordingly to their ability the language of the Dark-elves of Doriath. But their own tongues they maintained in secret, and they survive still in Middle-earth, and in some part certain the languages of Men are derived from them."

This mention of ’the languages of Men’ might mean Adūnaic, with which Khuzdūl has some affinity.

Panethor 16/Oct/2006 at 03:18 AM
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Tolkien maybedidn’twrote th Dwarfen language because: 

1) Maybe he hadn’t time to develop this language.

2) Because he wanted anyone to laern this language because it was a secret language. Do you know yhat the doors of Moria would open only if someone could find anf say a secret Dwarfen word. 

Aelindis 16/Oct/2006 at 06:15 AM
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> Do you know yhat the doors of Moria would open only if someone could find anf say a secret Dwarfen word. 

The word "mellon" that opened the doors of Moria is Sindarin, which is an Elvish language.

Lady Aikįri 17/Oct/2006 at 02:56 AM
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I think the same as Gothmog is pointing out, that the Dwarves have had their language from the beginning of their creation by Aule. The language is not related to the other languages in Middle Earth. There shall be perhaps some notes of the language, for it is used into the book of the Lord of Rings, when Gimly arrives in Lothlorien with the Nine Companions.
Thefourfingers 02/Nov/2006 at 11:02 AM
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What I am really interested in is if there is anything in HoME that details the stages of Tolkein’s creation of the stories of the Dwarves.  Did Tolkein write that the Dwarves had a secret language from the begining or did that develope at a latter stage in the writting?
Magradhaid 02/Nov/2006 at 11:55 AM
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The quote I gave from the Lost Road was written in the late 1930s, about 15-20 years preceding LotR.
Mithrandķr 06/Nov/2006 at 02:15 PM
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know that Tolkien says that the language of the dwarves is secret and they do not teach it to anyone. My question is, do you think that Tolkien added this to the story because he didn’t have time to develope the dwarven language as he did quenya and sindarian? Or did he have the idea that the dwarves had a secret language from the begining?
well, considering the amount of work Tolkien had to do to ceate Lord Of The Rings, i whould not be suprised that he whould have said that the dwarven langauage was completeley secret, and not added anything to it but the ocasional shout from Gimli from the Dwarvish language, as we see in the battle of Helms Deep.
Kirinki54 09/Nov/2006 at 01:25 PM
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Lady Aikįri wrote: The language is not related to the other languages in Middle Earth.

 

That is true if looking at origin (as Tyrhael pointed out) but not the other way around; other languages were related to Khuzdūl. We know that the Adūnaic borrowed much from Khūzdul (as well as from Elven and Mannish tongues), and thus some words or elements likely also survived in Westron which originated from Adūnaic.

Nahash 16/Nov/2006 at 09:42 AM
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if Tolkien didn’t develope the landguage of Khudzul then why did he name certain thngs in it, i think he did devleope the language because i don’t think he would just make those names up without having a litterary meaning.
>*Styxane*< 30/Nov/2006 at 12:14 AM
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For me, I think maybe Tokkien has the ideas of these secret language, just maybe he did not have time to write it down or dont want to let readers know about this language. It is quite secret, until now i have just found sindarin/ elven language and mordor black speech’s language. Other than these, i cant found out it anymore.
Nenarye 04/Dec/2006 at 09:13 AM
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What are "these secret language"?

Help?
Nenarye 04/Dec/2006 at 09:13 AM
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Do you perhaps mean dwarvish?
Magradhaid 04/Dec/2006 at 09:27 AM
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The confusion is because the previous part of the thread was archived; you can read it here.
Naduil 16/Dec/2006 at 06:33 AM
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Yes dwarvish is the secret language. I think that after he’d made elvish Tolkien couldn’t be bothered to make dwarvish as well. He made a few phrases and words but the whole language? Oh no. Tolkien was a sensible man who created a language. Not two.
Magradhaid 16/Dec/2006 at 09:34 AM
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He made far more languages than two. Early Qenya, Goldogrin, Qenya (Ingwiqendya, Valinorean Qenya), Noldorin (of Mithrim, Nargothrond, Gondolin, Fėanor’s folk, and mślanoldorin), Quenya, Sindarin, Ilkorin (Doriathrin, Danian (Ossiriandeb), Falathren) Khuzdūl, Avarin, Taliska, Hvendi, Mųrk, Telerin, Primitive Quendian, Common Eldarin, Teleakta (or Teleatka), Adūnaic, Westron, Rohirian, Dunlendish, Khandian, Haradric, Drūg, the language of Northern Men of the Vales of Anduin, Old Noldorin, archaic Sindarin, Entish, Black Speech (and debased Orcish), Valarin, Haladin, Malachian, etc. etc. Not all of those were elaborated upon or developed much, but some were. There were many forms of Elvish, some elaborated/developed much. And there were some non-Eldarin languages developed much, as well, like Taliska.
Naduil 16/Dec/2006 at 01:38 PM
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Oh.
Thefourfingers 18/Dec/2006 at 08:15 AM
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I guess my real question was akin to the chicken and egg question.  Which came first?  Did Tolkien come up with the idea that Khuzdul would be a language that would be kept secret by the dwarves first, and therefore didn’t bother to develope it further.  Or, did he create the idea of a secret language as a means to explain why the language was fully developed?
Thefourfingers 18/Dec/2006 at 08:17 AM
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By the way, thank you Tyrhael for posting the link to the archive.