Orcs and Uruks ~ altered intelligence?

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Laielinwen 23/Oct/2006 at 05:10 AM
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I was reading a different thread and this topic  came to mind. I think it would be interesting to get opinions and any textual evidence to shed light on it. We know that the orcs and uruks were corrupted beings; transformed from what was once good. When this happened did it affect their intellect at all?

I believe we often assume them not to be as intelligent as elves or the various races... Some see them as puppets and largely they are, but how knowledgeable are they of Middle-earth and the ways of war, customs, history, etc.?

Because they are savage and not so nice to look upon do we wrongly assume they have less to work with in their skulls as the rest of those in Middle-earth?

Túrin 23/Oct/2006 at 09:02 AM
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Some see them as puppets and largely they are....

Only under certain and unnatural conditions.

As to the point of your post - I agree that many tend to see the Orcs as little more than animals.  And I think that is is wrong assumption.  I’m not with my books, so I can’t quote, but experience in the subject area allows me to recall several things.

In The Hobbit the Goblins ( Goblins=Orcs) seem intelligent.  They have cities, kings, a capital (Mt. Gundabad) and the like.  After the fall of the Great Goblin, they decide to make a bid at taking control of the North.  They don’t just rush headlong after the Dwarves, etc.  They make a resolution and then gather their forces at their capital, and wait.  Only when they hear word of Smaug’s death (implying they have scouts / other means of aquiring intelligence, since I highly doubt that anybody is sending them messages) do they march out to Erebor.

The Orcs that capture Merry and Pippin argue and show intelligence and keen minds.  The one side is savvy enough to be wary of double-crossing by the other.  These Orcs also heal Merry’s gash with some sort of medicine.  It’s not glamorous, and Tolkien describes it, I believe, as ’crude but effective’.

The conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag shows some intellect.  It’s been a while since I’ve read that portion of the books, so I can’t comment much more fully on that right now.

There are also two quotes during the Battle of Pelennor Fields (I don’t think both are in that chapter, but surrounding the event), that say something to the effect of "It was no Orc-chieftan or Brigand that led the armies of Mordor..." - so it somewhat detracts from Orcish intelligence; but it should also be noted that it could be meaning the Orc-chieftans such as the leader of the band the Fellowship ran into in Moria, not necessarily the likes of, say, Azog, who fielded a large army and for a while had the upper hand against the Dwarves.

Arvellas 23/Oct/2006 at 05:53 PM
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The misconception may have come from the apparent fact that Orcs have the morlas of animals, but of course, moral values and intellectual capability are two entirely different things.  I have only a couple more notes to add to what Turin said:

In TH, not only do the Orcs tunnel, but they seem to have quite a large and complex cave system, complete with a fully-functional door disguised in the mountains.  It may not be as well-made as a Dwarven tunnel system, but it apparently worked for them, and Gandalf, Bilbo, and the Dwarves stopped to rest in a cave without realizing that there was any kind of door there, and awoke to find that the door was opening wide.  Clearly, the Orcs must have had some mechanical know-how.

The Orcs who kidnapped Merry and Pippin also gave them a liquor that giave them the strength to keep traveling.  It was, of course, not nearly as "wholesome" as an Elvish concoction, but it kept them on their feet.

Bearamir 23/Oct/2006 at 06:14 PM
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Ladies & Gentlemen:  This thead has the potential for some excellent development and discussion.  Unless you object (at which I will certainly return this thread to this forum), I would like to move this topic to Ad Lore so that it can better come to the attention of some of the other Lore Masters.
KingODuckingham 23/Oct/2006 at 08:18 PM
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Does intelligence matter much during the battles? In the siege of Minas Tirith, the orcs are thrown against the walls by the Witch King like so much fodder to be shot, and there is no recording of some sort of rebellion on the battlefield as orcs tried to disobey the command and save their skin. At the   Twin Teeth, at the final showdown, when Sauron falls, the orcs become disheartened, panic, and flee without their master’s will (unlike the evil humans)...or in other terms, become witless. Perhaps, even if they have native intelligence (which I’m really not debating against), it was suppressed to make way for a more complete control by Sauron?
Maegolfin 23/Oct/2006 at 10:57 PM
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They definitely have more intelligence than they are assumed to have.  After all, they were orginally Elves.  As much as they were mutilated and twisted, they must still have a bit of elvish intelligence.  But, they definitely seem to be controlled by whoever the big boss is.  This probably has to do with their upbringing.  Living with other orcs and whatever else happens to be around, they are no doubt brainwashed through their entire life to "worship" their leaders (Sauron as an example).  They know that they have no purpose in life but to serve him and to fight for him, whatever the risk to themselves.  They have nothing to fight for themselves, but everything is for the cause of whoever is higher up the chain of command.

This does bring up the question of Gorbag and Shagrat.  At one point, they talk about what they will do after the war is over; clearly a personal, almost human matter.  So really, there’s very little to know about the mind of an Orc.  All we can do is speculate (which is fun, of course).

Laielinwen 24/Oct/2006 at 07:15 AM
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Thanks Turin those are excellent examples off the top of your head.  You have good recall.
The conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag shows some intellect. 
I got a chuckle at this comment and I agree.. I guess if beings have sense enough to argue instead of just whack each other the is something going on upstairs!

Arvellas your point about the tunnel system is a good addition to Turin’s point about Kingdoms as well.

Thanks Bear. I’m honored. I went looking and thought I’d lost it!

kingoduckingham... I think since we do see them do more than just fight it does become relevant. Also battles that are won are usually done so by intelligent planning of tactics and strategies. Running headlong into a battle blindly won’t get it won that is for sure.

Maegolfin: They have nothing to fight for themselves, but everything is for the cause of whoever is higher up the chain of command.
I think we see them being pretty greedy at times. Do you think that greed is not born of personal wants?

Túrin 24/Oct/2006 at 08:53 AM
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Maegolfin,

      After all, they were orginally Elves.
More than likely, they were not, but that is a seperate discussion.

      So really, there’s very little to know about the mind of an Orc. All we can do is speculate (which is fun, of course).
I would beg the differ - we just need to look in the right places.

Laie - I was thinking more of how Shagrat and Gorbag know enough to let their troops go on ahead and speak in private, how they have memories and desires for the ’good old days’, and would select certain few ’trusty lads’ to go on ahead, etc. Not only arguing, but it does show they’ve some gears cranking up there!

kingoduckingham,

You touch on an important point to note in all of this, and maybe I should have said a bit more in my previous post. Laie had said that Orcs are largely puppets, and I disagreed, saying it was only the case under certain conditions. That/Those conditions are being under the ’Eye (mental domination) of a Dark Lord. Morgoth did it, and Sauron did it even better. Due to the powers each of these possessed, they could dominate the minds of their Orcs and reduce them to an almost ant-like state, virtually puppets, to do whatever they were ordered. But when this dominating willpower was suddently removed, they were for a time rendered witless. It would be a massive shock, a trauma. This is what was observed at the Battle of the Morannon.

"It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. Sp great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his ’eye’ wherever they might be; and when Morgoth was at last removed from Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a long time without control or purpose.

This servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs almost to and ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Ages un the tyranny of Sauron, Morgoth’s chief lieutenant. Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done. He was, of course, operating on a smaller scale, and he had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days. But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the ORcs in breed and languae, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command.

[....large omit here...]

The orks, it is true, sometimes appear to have been reduced to a condition ver similar [to being puppets], though there remains actually a profound difference. Those orks who dwelt long under the immediate attention of his will - as garrisons of his strongholds or elements of armies trained for special purposes in his war-designs - would act like herds, obeying instantly, as if with one will, his commands even if ordered to sacrifice their lives in his service. And as was seen when Morgoth was at last overthrown and cast out, those orks that had been so absorbed scattered helplessly, without purpose either to flee or to fight, and soon died or slew themselves.

Other originally independant creatures, and Men among them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves), could also be reduced to a like condition. But ’puppets’, with no independant life or will, would simply cease to move or do anything at all when the will of their maker was brought to nothing. In any case the number of orks that were thus ’absorbed’ was always only a small part of their total. To hold them in absolute servitude required a great expense of will. Morgoth though in origin possessed of vast power was finite; and it was this expenditure upon the orks, and still more upon the other far more formidible creatures in his service, that in the event so dissipated his powers of mind that Morgoth’s overthrow became possible. Thus the greater part of the orks, though under his orders and the dark shadow of their fear of him, were only intermittently objects of his immediate thought and concern, and while that was removed they relapsed into independance and became conscious of their hatred of him and his tyranny. Then they might neglect his orders, ....

     - Morgoth’s Ring, Myths Transformed, Text X

I think that illustrates the situation pretty well, and also accounts for why the likes of Shagrat and Gorbag might be talking of deserting - Sauron is more focussed with events elsewhere, not concerned with the Orcs at Cirith Ungol
DeluhatholSilverleaf 24/Oct/2006 at 09:09 AM
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This disussion has certainly got my attention, having not posted in ADlore for a long time...i might be a bit rusty.
Right. I believe that Orcs are, in fact intelligent, this can certainly be deduced from the various facts that most of you have put forward. What i find most suggestive, is the way orcs fought on battlefields, now certainly the WK had not a care about the orcs, just hurl ’em at the enemy, in other words as cannon-fodder, however, the orcs that Saruman sent to the seige of Helms Deep, had no human generals, or Nazgul for that matter, rather they, if memory serves, had an Orc in command...ask yourself, would saruman trust his campaign of war to, say, Homer Simpson? A defenite NO!!!
Laielinwen 24/Oct/2006 at 01:14 PM
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Turin... haha I think we are really on the same wavelength mostly. Your post seemed to prove my point about them being largely puppets (as I intended the phrasing). And I mean as we see them in the story they are under the control of Sauron, Saruman, etc. We don’t see them as often independant of being dominated/controlled... though we do see it some.  My use of the word puppet was not as literal as being lifeless without the dominating force to control actions.

I do agree with your view when the term is used as the quote above represents it. *smiles* Excellent addition. Thanks!

TB_Dany 24/Oct/2006 at 05:45 PM
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I don’t know if we get enough information from Tolkein about them. He never goes into any detail about them for us to get a good idea of what they are really like off the battle field.

Personally, I think they do have a lowered state of intelligence. Take, for example, when the Uruk-Hai capture Merry and Pippin. They believe that Merry or Pippin possesses a great weapon, but they don’t question what that weapon is, where they’re hiding it; nor do they try to take said weapon and wield it for themselves. Instead, they follow their orders and drag Merry and Pippin off to Saruman (or rather, they followed their orders up to the point where they met up with the Rohirrim).
Túrin 24/Oct/2006 at 09:48 PM
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Ahhh, Laie, I thought you were speaking of the ’natural’ state of the Orcs in regards to their puppetry. I see now that you mean the ’mode’ (most often observed) state of the Orcs. I still think, however, it is important to note the difference, and the fact that what we see the most is not the natural state, that they are independent beings.

Another little bit to add to the general pool of knowledge being tossed about in here, Arvellas touched on it:

"Now goblins are cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far."
     - The Hobbit, Over Hill and Under Hill

The main things I’d like to point out from this passage are:
1. The Goblins are not said to be unable to make beautiful things, just that they don’t. And I would think that they might be able to, because:
2. They can tunnel and mine as good as most Dwarves, but are often ’untidy’. They make many ’clever’ things and some things ’very well’ - the things that they are more concerned with, that matter to them more. Instruments of war, of expanding their tunnels, and of torture. Things that they need or delight in, they make well. To me, this speaks that while the Goblins can do some things well and perhaps even beautifully - they don’t because they don’t see the need. Why should they spend time and make elaborate and beautiful tunnel systems when they are just a roadway? They would prefer to concentrate on things that will give them an advantage over others: better swords, etc.
3. The Goblins were responsible for inventing some ingenious war machines. Inventing implies intellect.

Dany,

I’m curious - why would following orders lead to you think that the Orcs are less intelligent? On the contrary, I would suggest that following their orders to a ’T’ implies a higher degree of discipline and intelligence. Saruman knew full well what item a Hobbit was carrying, he did not want anyone else to touch it, hence his strict orders that the Hobbits are alive and unspoiled. If they Orcs had broken those orders, I think that would be a knock against them.
TB_Dany 24/Oct/2006 at 10:07 PM
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Following directions "to a ’T’," as you put it, indicates a lower state of intelligence because they do everything so unquestioningly. It’s not that they aren’t breaking his orders because they’re smart enough not to; they’re too dumb to think of anything else. They don’t have the mental capacity to question their orders, and can do nothing but follow them. That’s how I see it, at any rate.
Túrin 24/Oct/2006 at 10:22 PM
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You said "They believe that Merry or Pippin possesses a great weapon, but they don’t question what that weapon is, where they’re hiding it; nor do they try to take said weapon and wield it for themselves."

No, they did not do any of those things. But they did, after all bind the hands of Merry and Pippin. The Orcs were under strict orders, and they followed those orders flawlessly. And what did they do? They bind the hands of those who they believe carry a great weapon to prevent that weapon from being used against them.

Read the beginning of TTT again, the Uruk-hai are not portrayed as too ’dumb’ to question their orders, they just are disciplined enough to not disobey them. I think your view on discipline and loyalty is very misguided!
Laielinwen 24/Oct/2006 at 11:58 PM
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TB_Dany...Following directions "to a ’T’," as you put it, indicates a lower state of intelligence because they do everything so unquestioningly. It’s not that they aren’t breaking his orders because they’re smart enough not to; they’re too dumb to think of anything else. They don’t have the mental capacity to question their orders, and can do nothing but follow them.

I believe certain organizations and those in those organizations lend themselves to the order-following without question thing. The military ranks in real life are set up so that orders are given and followed. The members of the military don’t have lower intelligence because they are part of that structure.

I do believe though that choice was not always provided where orcs/uruks are concerned. So we must look beyond that aspect of their character for other forms of evidence that we can use.

Turin...They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones.
To add to what you said regarding the quote... making something clever does indicate a certain level of intelligence.

The dictionary defines clever as:  Mentally quick and original; bright.

Laitaine Adarlas 25/Oct/2006 at 12:55 AM
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Quote: Originally posted by TB_Dany on Tuesday, October 24, 2006
They believe that Merry or Pippin possesses a great weapon, but they don’t question what that weapon is, where they’re hiding it; nor do they try to take said weapon and wield it for themselves.
What about Grishnakh?  He tried to take the Ring.  He pulled Merry and Pippin away from the rest of the group so he could search for it.  I don’t remember if it said he was specifically looking to take the Ring for himself or if he was going to take it to Sauron but it shows that Grishnakh at least had the intelligence to do what would benefit himself the most.  He’s actually very ambitious.
KingODuckingham 25/Oct/2006 at 12:27 PM
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Turin: I noticed in that quote of yours from HoME that it says men could be reduced to a like condition as orcs, meaning the state of being dominated under his will. But Sauron wasn’t doing this during the Third Age, was he? It says in ROTK that the humans that had been in his service gathered themselves for a last desperate stand, not running wild and witless like the other servants. Not that I’m questioning the quote, since Tolkien said it, but are there any examples?

Also, is this the sort of thing being referred to when it talks of Saruman’s power of voice, wherein some were completely subjected, and wherever they went they always heard the voice whispering to them and telling them what to do? And thus would Grima fall under this category of being mentally dominated? Or is Saruman’s voice a different sort of domination?
Túrin 25/Oct/2006 at 12:55 PM
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kingoduckingham,

Off-hand, I cannot think of any examples of Men in such a state.  The quote comes from an essay in which Tolkien asserts the Mannish origin theory for Orcs.  Elsewhere in the essay, Tolkien tells how Sauron, and evidently Saruman as well, would reduce Men to Orc-like mentality and force them to breed with Orcs to produce new breeds.  Whether this means that they dominated the minds of those unfortunate Men as described in the Myths Transformed quote above or not, I’m not entirely sure.  The quote above seems to suggest a more ’puppet-like’ control.

As for Saruman’s voice, I personally have always read that differently.  I see his as more of a persuasive ability of great magnitude.  The ’domination’ is more controlling - not just persuading someone to follow with you, but being able to take control of the given person if so desired.  I might be wrong about that, but the ’Eye’ (e.g. the ’Eye of Sauron’) has always seemed a more intensive and potent cousin to the Voice of Saruman.

KingODuckingham 25/Oct/2006 at 07:35 PM
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Does this perhaps have any relation to the state of the Ringwraiths? I always thought (and it is no doubt still correct) that it is their nine rings that have done this to them, but perhaps part of the reason it could happen that they fall so completely under Sauron’s dominion, unlike the seven dwarves, is their innate ability to be dominated by another’s will? Far-fetched perhaps, but just throwing ideas out as they occur to me.
Túrin 25/Oct/2006 at 08:05 PM
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That question is very interesting; I’d never thought of that before. Just considering it and what I know of Myths Transformed, I think I will be able to demonstrate your suggestion correct. But it requires more time to look up and cross-reference than I can dedicate to it at the moment. I’ll get to it as soon as may be.
elendil elessar 26/Oct/2006 at 05:00 AM
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The way Turin described the Dominion of both Morgoth and Sauron (who was even better at it as you said) over their "puppets" reminds me a lot of the way the seven fathers of the dwarves were before Eru gave them free will, would it be very far fetched that what Aule could create that was under his will, his best "apprentice" Sauron, could in some way replicate to ensnare creatures. The rings are a perfect example of it.
Túrin 26/Oct/2006 at 05:39 PM
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Right, now that I have a bit of time...

The Nazgul were held by their Nine Rings of Power. To quote:

"Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control over their wills."
     - Letter #246

So then, was this unique to the Nazgul? I would say it is not. The One Ring did indeed allow Sauron to:

"...perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them."
     - Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

However, I am not convinced that this was the only use of the Great Ring. The very fact that the Hobbits are turned invisible and were more ’preserved’ is evidence enough, I think, to show that the Ring could be used for other purposes, knowingly or not. So the Great Ring was not only used to control the other Rings.

"Though reduced to ’a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended."
     - Letter #211

The One Ring, it seems, was not used to control the minds merely of those who wore other Rings of Power, but was a tool able to be used to dominate minds, in general.

And just how is this domination described? The ’Eye of Sauron’:

"He took up again his great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure."
     - Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

The One Ring allowed him control over all the Rings of Power, though the nine he was able to control the Nazgul regardless of the status of the One Ring, and Sauron was able to dominate minds without the One Ring. His ability to do so was greatly enhanced with the One, but I would interpret that as putting him to the level the latest quote speaks of - few in Middle-earth being able to endure the power of his will. By the end of the Third Age, maybe the likes of Galadriel, perhaps Elrond, Gandalf, and maybe Cirdan. Those are the only ones I would consider as possibly able; Aragorn’s contest is via the palantiri, and at a large distance - Tolkien makes a note of it in a letter and says that in person Aragorn would not have been able to resist. Without the One Ring, he still could, but not as effectivly.

Hence, I think I’ve firmly enough established that Sauron’s use of the Rings of Power was merely one method of his to gain control over the minds of others, one application of his ’Eye’.

Now on to how this all connects to Morgoth’s workings. How exactly did Morgoth control the minds of Orcs/Men? By using his inherent power to dominate them:

"To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on it and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ’stained’. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently ’incarnate’: for this reason he was afraid, and waged war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

Sauron, however, ... spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of Middle-earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate.
     - HoMe X: Morgoth’s Ring, Myths Transformed, Text VII

At first glance this might seem to suggest a fundemental difference in objective between Morgoth’s and Sauron’s workings, but bear with me for another quote or two:

"Hence [Morgoth’s] endeavour always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them into his own will and being..."
     - ibid

"Melkor ’incarnated’ himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the ’flesh’ or physical matter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings."
     - ibid

Right there. Morgoth’s operations are said to be similar to Sauron’s with the Rings. And the previous one making the connection to Morgoth and the domination of wills; another link in the chain. As I showed earlier, Sauron’s operations with the Rings was just one way of dominating and subjecting minds to his will, to generalize his operations, he was exerting the pressure of his ’Eye’ on other wills to take control of them. Morgoth exerted his will to take control over Arda, including holding:

"...the Orcs in dire thraldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his ’eye’ wherever they might be....Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done."

Sauron’s use of the Rings was one part of his ’Eye’, a way to enhance it so that he could better dominate minds. Melkor was interested in a wider array of control, the domination of minds and wills included. By integrating him inherent power into the physical matter of Arda was to enhance his ability to control Arda - and this was said to be of similar nature to Sauron with the Rings. Hence, Melkor’s integrating himself into Arda would enable him to better dominate and control the minds of lesser beings, which is precisely what Sauron’s goal was with the Rings.

Therefore, I conclude that Sauron’s use of the Rings, while having a narrower scope, was the same as Morgoth’s dissapation of his inherent power into Arda. Since one application of that dissipation would be to better dominate minds, Morgoth’s domination/control over his Orcs would be the same as Sauron’s domination of creatures, including that via the Rings of Power.

I apologize, Laie, for getting somewhat off-topic, but this vein was too interesting to not pursue.

elendil elessar - Indeed!  In Myths Transformed Tolkien does talk about the Dwarves, and says that if Melkor had attempted to create his own creatures from scratch, he would only have succeeded in making things like Aule did - puppets that would cease moving when he was not activally controlling them.  However, Tolkien notes that Orcs were not like that - they could be dominated to controlled so by the Dark Lords, but if the Dark Lord did not have his thought bent on them, then the Orcs would revert to independance and act for themselves.

goldenhair 27/Oct/2006 at 02:19 PM
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Turin,
I find text X quite complicated both on the origen of Orcs and the thraldom under which they are held.

While it is noted as one example
"But men could (and can still) be reduced to such a condition......In cny case, though the number of orks at the height of Morgoth’s power, and still after his return from coptivity, seems to have been very great, those who we ’absorbed’ were alway a small part of the total.

So we see JRRT’s thought process that Elves and men cannot be so dominated, however, only a small part of the total was dominated in such fashion in any event?
And while some text is seen claiming Elves and dwarves could not be so dominated, Tolkien explains in text VIII
"In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and init, before the fall of Utumno"
Also
"Morgoth though in origin possessed of vast power was finite; and it was this expenditure upone the orks, and still more upon the other far more formidable creatures in his service, that in the event so dissipated his powers of mind that Morgoth’s overthrough became possible."