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Ronaya 09/Nov/2006 at 03:13 PM
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Why is it that when people go to Numenor they live forever. Or am I wrong? I know they can’t come back, but what happeneds to them there? Is it like dieing and going to heaven? My mom and I were arguing about this so I wanted to know.
Tuna 09/Nov/2006 at 03:32 PM
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Numenor is an island that the Valar raised and on which the Numenoreans dwelt. However, as they were of the race of Men, they were subject to death as is the fate of Men. And, in fact, there was much movement between Numenor and Middle-earth before it was sunk.

If I read you right, it seems as if you might be thinking of Valinor, the Undying Lands. If such is the case, then it still doesn’t grant immortality, though travel is generally limited to the elves voyaging to Tol Eressea rather than the return voyage. It is not dying, for it is a very physical place. It could be considered paradise, though I would definately hesistate to call it a heaven.

Endril 10/Nov/2006 at 09:11 AM
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Ronaya: Numenor was a kingdom of men located on an island. Men that lived there were later known as the dunedain. They had a longer lifespan but they were not immortal at all. People that get there didn’t became imortal.

Valinor ( Undying Lands/Aman) was the place where the valar lived. Elves got there after they died and inhabited the halls of Mandos, there souls I meen. Elves that sailed over the sea got to Tol Eressea, an island near Valinor but not part of it.

Hope this helps.
Ronaya 10/Nov/2006 at 10:26 AM
Defender of Imladris Points: 710 Posts: 1155 Joined: 12/Nov/2005
So, if the elves go to valinor, did frodo go there to when he left middle earth?
Qtpie 10/Nov/2006 at 11:14 AM
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I’m not sure if Frodo actually made it to the shores of Valinor or if he only made it as far as Tol Eressea.

"As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer ’immortality’ upon them. Their sojourn was a ’purgatory’, but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing. Letter 325

But Frodo did pass into the West for healing, and he also died somewhere over the Sea. I’m not sure if Frodo actually made it to the shores of Valinor because no mortal was allowed to Valinor. Frodo may have only made it to Tol Eressea.
Sil 12/Nov/2006 at 05:53 AM
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Also, people could get back from Númenor - and, originally, they could get back from the Undying Lands as well, although after the crossing of the Valar and the Vanyar back to Middle Earth for the last time, it seems no one from Aman has in fact come back across. Númenoreans could, originally, sail to both the Undying Lands and to Middle Earth, although they were forbidden to sail to Valinor (which was why Númenor was destroyed after the breaking of that Ban). However, Elendil and Sons escaped to Middle Earth, and the Númenoreans were constantly sailing to Middle Earth for various reasons whilst Númenor still existed. Just read the Akallabeth in The Silmarillion ^ ^
Elros Tar-Minya 12/Nov/2006 at 06:18 AM
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The Numenoreans never could sail to the Undying lands, as they and Valinor are one and the same place. The original ban stated that they could sail as far as liked eastwards but were only allowed to sail westwards staying in sight of Numenor;

But the Lords of Valinor forbade them to sail so far westwards that the coasts of Numenor could no longer be seen. (Akallabeth)

Also it is know that at that time Eleven Mariners would still venture east out of Avallone on Eressea, and visit Numenor in oarless boats, as white birds flying from the sunset.
Sil 13/Nov/2006 at 02:40 AM
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Elros Tar-Minya - The Númenoreans were not permitted to sail to The Undying Lands (and Valinor is not exactly the same thing, but rather part of the Undying Lands/Aman, I think... the multiple names get a bit crazy), but they could physically do it, is what I meant. After all, Ar Pharazon and his mariners did in fact reach Aman, although they were then destroyed by falling earth etc.. but, since the Straight Road and the Globing of the World hadn’t happened until then, it was physically possible to do it - just forbidden.

Lord of the Rings 13/Nov/2006 at 12:07 PM
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although they were then destroyed by falling earth

Actually, we aren’t sure that they were destroyed. It seems more likely that they were somehow preserved beneath the earth:

But Ar-Pharazôn the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.
-The Silmarillion, Akallabêth

There is of course the qualifier "it is said", but the suggestion is there, at least, that they weren’t killed (whereas there is no implication that they were indeed killed).
Oin 14/Nov/2006 at 05:53 PM
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Purrsephone: Actually, there was an exception to that. In the Second Age, the reincarnated Glorfindel (who had died protecting the exiles of Gondolin by fighting the Balrog and killing the demon in the process of falling to death) was sent back to Middle-Earth by the Valar to help organize the fight against Sauron. Likewise, the Istari were also sent, but I don’t think they count in this argument.
Sil 15/Nov/2006 at 02:09 AM
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Oh yeah, good point! I forgot about Glorfindel.. how shocking
Elros Tar-Minya 15/Nov/2006 at 09:09 AM
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My apologies Purrsephone I misread your original post.