Arnor

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GornTheDunedain 19/Nov/2006 at 08:30 AM
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Who founded arnor?

Elros Tar-Minya 19/Nov/2006 at 08:42 AM
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Gorn The Kingdom of arnor was founded by Elendil and those of the faithful that came back with him to ME after the destruction of Numenor.

Elendil was cast up by the waves in the land of Lindon and he was befriended by Gil-galad. Thence he passed up the River Lhun, and beyond Ered Luin he established his realm....Isildur and Anarion were bourne away southwards, and at the last they brought their ships up the Great River Anduin....and they established a realm in those lands that were after called Gondor, whereas the North Kingdom was named Arnor. Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
allendeonour 22/Nov/2006 at 12:40 AM
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wow so if elendil came back from numenor with enough people to found arnot how many would he have come back with ruffly ?
Qtpie 22/Nov/2006 at 10:03 AM
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I’m not too sure if I get your question allendeonour. But I’ll try my best . Do you mean that if Elendil then went back to Numenor to bring some more people to live in Arnor? Well if that’s the case, Numenor was no more. Eru caused it to sink under the waves, because Ar-Pharazon landed on the shores of Valinor which was forbidden. Numenor was destroyed and only Elendil and his sons escaped to found the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. So Elendil can’t go back to Numenor to try and bring people to Arnor. Hope it helps!
Vinrahir 22/Nov/2006 at 03:39 PM
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i think that  allendeonour  was trying to say, how many faithful numenoreans escaped the destruction if there was enough to found 2 new kingdoms???
Harlondir Helcaraxë 22/Nov/2006 at 05:47 PM
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Tall ships and tall men,
Three times three.
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing Sea ?
Seven stars and Seven Stones
And one White Tree.
(The Palantir, The Two Towers)
This poem suggests that there were 3 * 3 = 9 men who came on the ships to Middle-Earth. Though this may be suggesting only the leaders, there might be others.

Aeros 22/Nov/2006 at 10:41 PM
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Harlondir- I doubt if 9 men could sail three ships, let alone found two different kingdoms. Even if they did manage to win the favor of the native people, Numenorean blood would become mixed so quickly that after the third or fourth generation it would be impossible to tell a Numenorean from a native.

I’m pretty sure that verse refers to Elendil and his two sons, Anarion and Isildur as the three men, who were borne across the sea on three ships.
geordie 23/Nov/2006 at 01:18 AM
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The quote is ’Tall ships and tall Kings three times three’.

That is nine ships, and nine kings [if you take it literally - no, I don’t know who the ’nine kings’ were, either. ]

Of course, these were only the Faithful; the survivors of Numenor, actually from that island before it drowned. There had been settlements of Numenoreans on the coastlands of M-e for many years; more than enough to found two new realms.
Harlondir Helcaraxë 23/Nov/2006 at 02:41 AM
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geordie - Very correctly pointed out, thanks. Yeah, now that I remember, there were settlements of the Numenoreans on Middle-Earth ever since the ships came back in the times of Veantur. They must have increased during the time of Aldarion.
Since they already had such substantial settlements in Middle-Earth, is it possible that the establishment of the Realms (as Kingdoms) was a mere formality ?
Hithlum 23/Nov/2006 at 02:44 AM
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The 3 times 3 isn’t exactly three groups of three. Elendil had 4 ships, Isildur 3 and Anorien 2. This is also nine, so the three times three is just to make the rhyme fit or something like that. This was commonly used in the Medieval poetry, and I’m sure Tokien knew this and did it intentionaly
geordie 23/Nov/2006 at 03:24 AM
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Hithlum -
Oin 23/Nov/2006 at 08:03 PM
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Vinrahir: Please do not copy and paste members’ names from their name bar. It is considered spamming. To give you a taste of what that name looks like in code when you post it like that:

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So please refrain from doing that in the future. Thanks!
Loin Stealtharm 29/Nov/2006 at 12:15 AM
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Yep, I also thought there were nine SHIPS instead of nine men. Seeing the ships of Numenor were pretty big, there were numerous people. Also if you consider the amount of people fighting in the last alliance, I would guess Arnor and Gondor were both pretty big kingdoms.
But as the real question was: who founded it. That was indeed Elendil.
Naduil 16/Dec/2006 at 04:43 AM
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Where did the rest of the thread go?
Qtpie 16/Dec/2006 at 09:54 PM
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The rest of the thread was archived and haven’t beeen brought back.
Kaulargorn 17/Dec/2006 at 02:06 AM
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Yes, Elendil founded Arnor, but emigration of Numenoreans to Arnor had started earlier. Arnor’s decline began after the catastrophic Battle of Gladden Fields where Isildur(Arnor’s king then) and his three sons were killed by the orcs. Then Valandil the youngest son of Isildur became king
Naduil 17/Dec/2006 at 02:56 AM
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Cheers.
Qtpie 17/Dec/2006 at 05:29 PM
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Kaulagorn: Arnor’s decline was when Earendur passed away and his three sons had disputes as to who had the right to claim the kingship of Arnor.

’And it came to pass after the days of Earendur, the seventh king that followed Valandil, that the Men of Westernesse, the Dunedain of the North, became divided into petty realms and lordships, and their foes devoured them one by one. Ever they dwindled with the years, until their glory passed, leaving only green mounds in the grass.’ The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
Kaulargorn 18/Dec/2006 at 01:37 AM
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You talk about the last stage of Arnor’s decline. I stated that Arnor after Isildur’s and his sons’ assasination was never as strong as before. I didn’t say that it was the time of the destroy but the decline had already started. The situation you talk about I think is one of the the last stages of Arnor’s decline which had started from the Battle of Gladden Fields

Arthur Weasley 18/Dec/2006 at 05:46 PM
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The kingdom of Arnor has always captured my imagination!  Annuminas, the ancient Capital of Arnor, would be just the sort of place Iwould like to live in (low hills next to a lake).  From the late Second Age to 861 TA, Arnor was a strong and viable kingdom until its division.  Even afterrwards, Arthedain continued on for another 1000 years even after Rhudaur and Cardolan were destroyed.  Had Arnor or Arthedain continued, Aragorn would have been the King at either kingdom at birth as well as entitled to the crown of Gondor when the line of Anarion failed in the South.  Arnor should never be forgotten and I believe that it was restored in the Fourth Age (At least Annuminas was).   

Morgil 18/Dec/2006 at 07:08 PM
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I would have liked to have seen the start of this thread. Like Darth Enalan, I have always been interested in Arnor and regretted its secondary role to Gondor. The royal house and people of Arnor were closer to the elven realms and were just as much a bulwark against evil as Gondor and its people. I would have greatly enjoyed the opportunity to learn more about the north kingdom.
Oin 18/Dec/2006 at 08:14 PM
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   GornTheDunedain ( 68 Points ) Sunday, November 19, 2006 at 08:30
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Who founded arnor?

   Elros Tar-Minya ( 199 Points ) Sunday, November 19, 2006 at 08:42
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Gorn The Kingdom of arnor was founded by Elendil and those of the faithful that came back with him to ME after the destruction of Numenor.

Elendil was cast up by the waves in the land of Lindon and he was befriended by Gil-galad. Thence he passed up the River Lhun, and beyond Ered Luin he established his realm....Isildur and Anarion were bourne away southwards, and at the last they brought their ships up the Great River Anduin....and they established a realm in those lands that were after called Gondor, whereas the North Kingdom was named Arnor. Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?
   allendeonour ( 202 Points ) Wednesday, November 22, 2006 at 00:40
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wow so if elendil came back from numenor with enough people to found arnot how many would he have come back with ruffly ?

may the grace of the valar protect you
   Táragolloion ( 1281 Points ) Wednesday, November 22, 2006 at 10:03
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I’m not too sure if I get your question allendeonour. But I’ll try my best . Do you mean that if Elendil then went back to Numenor to bring some more people to live in Arnor? Well if that’s the case, Numenor was no more. Eru caused it to sink under the waves, because Ar-Pharazon landed on the shores of Valinor which was forbidden. Numenor was destroyed and only Elendil and his sons escaped to found the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. So Elendil can’t go back to Numenor to try and bring people to Arnor. Hope it helps!


Where now are the Dunedain, Elessar, Elessar?
   Vinrahir ( 521 Points ) Wednesday, November 22, 2006 at 15:39
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i think that  allendeonour  was trying to say, how many faithful numenoreans escaped the destruction if there was enough to found 2 new kingdoms???

""What can you see?, On the horizon, Why do the white gulls call?, Across the sea""
   Harlondir ( 678 Points ) Wednesday, November 22, 2006 at 17:47
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Tall ships and tall men,
Three times three.
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing Sea ?
Seven stars and Seven Stones
And one White Tree.
(The Palantir, The Two Towers)
This poem suggests that there were 3 * 3 = 9 men who came on the ships to Middle-Earth. Though this may be suggesting only the leaders, there might be others.

   Aeros ( 834 Points ) Wednesday, November 22, 2006 at 22:41
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Harlondir- I doubt if 9 men could sail three ships, let alone found two different kingdoms. Even if they did manage to win the favor of the native people, Numenorean blood would become mixed so quickly that after the third or fourth generation it would be impossible to tell a Numenorean from a native.

I’m pretty sure that verse refers to Elendil and his two sons, Anarion and Isildur as the three men, who were borne across the sea on three ships.

At space camp excitement did abound!
   geordie ( 5087 Points ) Thursday, November 23, 2006 at 01:18
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The quote is ’Tall ships and tall Kings three times three’.

That is nine ships, and nine kings [if you take it literally - no, I don’t know who the ’nine kings’ were, either. ]

Of course, these were only the Faithful; the survivors of Numenor, actually from that island before it drowned. There had been settlements of Numenoreans on the coastlands of M-e for many years; more than enough to found two new realms.


It’s all in the books...
   Harlondir ( 678 Points ) Thursday, November 23, 2006 at 02:41
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geordie - Very correctly pointed out, thanks. Yeah, now that I remember, there were settlements of the Numenoreans on Middle-Earth ever since the ships came back in the times of Veantur. They must have increased during the time of Aldarion.
Since they already had such substantial settlements in Middle-Earth, is it possible that the establishment of the Realms (as Kingdoms) was a mere formality ?
   Hithlum ( 3880 Points ) Thursday, November 23, 2006 at 02:44
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The 3 times 3 isn’t exactly three groups of three. Elendil had 4 ships, Isildur 3 and Anorien 2. This is also nine, so the three times three is just to make the rhyme fit or something like that. This was commonly used in the Medieval poetry, and I’m sure Tokien knew this and did it intentionaly
   geordie ( 5087 Points ) Thursday, November 23, 2006 at 03:24
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Hithlum -

It’s all in the books...
   Óin ( 9501 Points ) Thursday, November 23, 2006 at 20:03
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Vinrahir: Please do not copy and paste members’ names from their name bar. It is considered spamming. To give you a taste of what that name looks like in code when you post it like that:

URL=http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/profile.asp?profile=86291&ReturnPage=Thread&ForumID=23&TopicID=210386&PagePosition=1&PagePostPosition=" target=_blank><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 15px; COLOR: #d9c64f; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" border="0">allendeonour</SPAN>[/URL

So please refrain from doing that in the future. Thanks!

   Loin Stealtharm ( 6775 Points ) Wednesday, November 29, 2006 at 00:15
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Yep, I also thought there were nine SHIPS instead of nine men. Seeing the ships of Numenor were pretty big, there were numerous people. Also if you consider the amount of people fighting in the last alliance, I would guess Arnor and Gondor were both pretty big kingdoms.
But as the real question was: who founded it. That was indeed Elendil.

There you go - the rest of the thread.

Morgil 18/Dec/2006 at 09:59 PM
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Oin...May you never have need of haste.