why elves teach their language freely

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allendeonour 22/Nov/2006 at 01:33 AM
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can enyone tell me why elves teach there language freely but dwarves keep theres secret what are there reasons to do that and what would you do if you had your own language and who do you prefere elves or dwarves i like both for diferent reasons
allendeonour 22/Nov/2006 at 02:20 AM
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please reply someone

Cigfa 22/Nov/2006 at 12:58 PM
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Well, I believe the elves didn’t want to fade from Middle-Earth entirely, so the least so they could do was to spread their language and culture to other races in the hopes that they’re carry on. The Dwarves as we know were quite content with hiding from the world and thus protecting their unique heritage.
Nahash 22/Nov/2006 at 10:23 PM
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it was because of the elves desire to talk to everyone. They even taght the trees to talk. It could be that the best way to comunicate for them was their own toung, and also i don’t think they care who speaks Elvish because if someone an elf man or hobbit were speaking elvish a 1000 miles away it has no relativity on their everyday life. And i think the dwarves only keep it secret because of their pride andarrogance.
Sil 23/Nov/2006 at 03:40 AM
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The Elves have a natural delight in language and song and as Elencendu has said, communication - in fact, they are called the Quendi, or the Speakers, and it’s similarly natural that they desire to share this joy in language with other beings, and, since their language was first and most developed, they were the teachers rather than the learners. The Dwarves’ language seems almost bound up with their religion, as it was taught to them by Aule, and keep it private almost as a sacred thing as well as, perhaps again as Elencendu said, pride. Then again, the Dwarves did tend to keep themselves to themselves far more than the Elves did.
allendeonour 23/Nov/2006 at 09:47 AM
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yeh i agree purrsephone teleri are sea elves sindar smith elves and the noldor i think i heard were spesialised in song language and always improveing it
KingODuckingham 25/Nov/2006 at 09:15 PM
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Did the dwarves keep their language such a secret? I remember Gimli telling the names of the peaks of the Misty Mountains in Dwarvish, and Sam remarking on what a fair jaw-cracker Dwarf language must be. But the only thing they kept secret that comes to mind is their names, not necessarily their language. What else were they holding back, exactly?
Hithleen Eltoran 25/Nov/2006 at 11:33 PM
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I remember reading somewhere that the Dwarves were very secretive about their language and did not teach it to others, aside from place names.  The only thing I can lay my hands on at the moment is:
But they (elves) could understand no word of the tongue of the Naugrim (dwarves) , which to their ears was cumbrous and unlovely; and few ever of the Eldar have achieved the mastery of it.  But the Dwarves were swift to learn, and indeed were more willing to learn the Elven-tongue than to teach their own to those of alien race.  quote from The Silmarillion, Chapter 10, Of The Sindar. (emphasis mine)
I suspect there are other, better quotes to be found than my poor example

KingODuckingham 26/Nov/2006 at 09:58 PM
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Actually, that makes sense when I think of the Fellowship outside Moria, when Gandalf says he once knew all the spells used for such a purpose in the tongues of elves, men, and orcs (but not dwarves) and that he would have had to ask Gimli for recourse to opening words like that. I would like to find a good solid quote for that though.
Aelindis 27/Nov/2006 at 12:33 AM
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KingODuckingham: "I once knew every spell in all tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind. But only a few trials, I think, will be needed; and I shall not have to call on Gimli for words of the secret dwarf-tongue that they teach none. The opening words are Elvish, like the writing on the arch: that seems certain."

This paragraph is located in the chapter "A Journey in the Dark" of LotR (a book which I would warmly recommend to you).

allendeonour 27/Nov/2006 at 03:11 AM
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the opening words were elvish they were friends and traded the elves and dwarves but the dwarves still didn’t teach their language they had strong morals if you were dwarves would you teach your language ?
Sil 27/Nov/2006 at 04:05 AM
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No, because if I were a Dwarf, I would feel the same way as the actual Dwarves felt about teaching the language. Which they didn’t apparently like doing.

kylita15 27/Nov/2006 at 06:50 AM
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i agree with Purrsephone because i also need to protect something or i just don’t feel it. maybe my privacy?
Aelindis 27/Nov/2006 at 08:19 AM
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Well, the question why (or whether) the dwarves kept their language secret while the Elves did not has been answered. Of course this topic could be continued, if desired.

Questions such as "what would you do if you had your own language and who do you prefere elves or dwarves" /  "if you were dwarves would you teach your language ?" seem to belong to OOME because they do not bear any reference to Tolkien’s languages.

No offence meant. 

 

KingODuckingham 27/Nov/2006 at 10:39 AM
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Heaven forbid that the conversation should take a new turn.
How about this question--rather than if you were a dwarf would you teach your language, what is it in dwarves that makes them so secretive about their language, and the elves that makes them so open about it? The dwarves are more open than elves as far as normal interaction with other races--trade and living together, etc. Lothlorien and Rivendell are much more secretive places than Erebor or the Blue Mountains, and dwarves are seen far more often for instance, in the Shire than elves are. Is it just language that dwarves like to keep to themselves, and what is so special about it?
Falvlun 27/Nov/2006 at 07:48 PM
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Remember also that language is very important to Tolkien. To keep a language secret-- well, that seems meaningful in some way. Or perhaps it just means Tolkien was not as interested in its development, and therefore never fully fleshed it out?
Aelindis 28/Nov/2006 at 06:51 AM
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I don’t believe that the minor degree of completion of Khuzul was the cause of Tolkien’s repeated assertion that the Dwarves kept their language secret. There are other languages that are just as little or even less completed, although their speakers are not said to be secretive.

Besides, Khuzdul is said to be "harsh and intricate, and few have ever essayed to learn them." (V:178)

KingODuckingham 28/Nov/2006 at 08:59 AM
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Sounds like the dwarves don’t really need to keep it very secret if it is so hard and undesirable to learn. Like Sam said, a jaw-cracker. But why do they reveal names of places then? What is it about the rest of the language, and particularly their own personal names for themselves that they want to keep secret?
Aelindis 28/Nov/2006 at 10:19 AM
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Well, it seems as if the attitude of the Dwarves towards their languages has been described several times, cf. LotR, Silm, HoME.
Could you please specify which statement you want to discuss?

Falvlun 01/Dec/2006 at 12:57 PM
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Aelindas, I agree with you actually. It was just another idea to throw out there.

KingO, I’ve also heard in mythology and some cultures this need to keep your ’real’ name secret. It’s often because there is a belief in the innate power of words, and therefore, the word that describes you best (ie, your secret name), also contains great power over you. Thus, if someone knew your secret name, they could control you, or weaken you in some way. Perhaps a similiar belief can be seen in Dwarves?

samissupercool 02/Dec/2006 at 06:51 AM
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maybe the dwarves didn’t want to reveal their language or their names because of their obvious mistrust for the elves, which has gone back since both races were created
then again, the power of words may be a belief that would be strong with the dwarves, for of course, the gates to their mighty Khazad-dm are opened by a single word
Aelindis 02/Dec/2006 at 09:12 AM
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Falvlun: Yes, this connotation suggests itself, though Tolkien did not refer to it explicitly with regard to Khuzdul, AFAIK.

samissupercool: Well, as this "single word" was Sindarin, I don’t really see your point.
Magradhaid 02/Dec/2006 at 10:11 AM
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Falvlun & Aelindis: There used to be an Advanced Lore thread about the power of names, as seen in characters such as Morgoth, Sauron, and Tom Bombadil. Sadly, I can’t find it in the Archives. But that’s a little off topic off languages.
Masisoar 02/Dec/2006 at 02:17 PM
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I believe the Elves teach their language so freely is that.. maybe if someone was up to the challenge of learning the Elven language.. they are worthy enough to know it.
KingODuckingham 02/Dec/2006 at 11:25 PM
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Falv: I did think of that, but I was reluctant to suggest it because to me it seems rather, well not silly, but odd. Perhaps the dwarves would be afraid of some gaining control over their fierce independence if their true names were known, but even if they believed this, I see no reason to believe it to be true. No other races even have private names, and therefore are either in no danger of being controlled or don’t have such a belief. And then if we did accept that the dwarves believed such a thing, would we not then have to also assume they were wrong, based on the examples of all the other races lacking such a trait? And if they were wrong about this peculiar belief of theirs, what about their other peculiar beliefs? Are they all wrong too? Are the dwarves just messed up and ignorant? I would prefer to think otherwise, and therefore tend to reject that original premise.
deling Beorhtlig 02/Dec/2006 at 11:33 PM
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wasnt it the Petty Dwarves who taught their language freely?
Gillahunter1 15/Dec/2006 at 09:38 AM
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In the battle of hornburg, Gimli yells out a dwarven battle-cry (can’t remember it right now), here are a few reasons i think  he had yelled in dwarvish:

1-Maybe it was a spur of the moment and couldn’t control himself with adrenalin making him charge and yell.

2-With all the noise, the only people who would have heard him would be the orcs, and since they had no intrest in his language, and would be dead anyway, it didn’t matter.

3-Maybe only certain words where sacred, such as names.