Phial of Galadriel

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3RingsforEGG 25/Nov/2006 at 02:33 AM
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It was obviously magical that it affected Shelob with its brightness but not Frodo.

What exatly is in it, literallyt?  Star of something? 

Also, will it also scare away other things, like Orcs or Nazgul?  Could this be related to the same light that Gandalf used to scare away the Nazgul in the movies, regardless if it happened or not in the books?

Mithrandír 25/Nov/2006 at 02:47 AM
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What exatly is in it, literallyt? Star of something?

well, the Phial of Galadriel contained the light of Earendil, so i think that is why it scared Shelob, because for one, she had lived in the darkness for all her life, and she had not seen the light.
I am not sure as much if it would have scared Orcs, for most of them had seen some light.
the Nazgul definetly could have been, because they were so evil that i do not think that they would take in the light of such a person, like Earendil the Mariner.
geordie 25/Nov/2006 at 03:19 AM
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Could this be related to the same light that Gandalf used to scare away the Nazgul in the movies, regardless if it happened or not in the books?

Nice distinction!    Actually, in the book, Gandalf did avert the Nazgul by a white light from his hand. Nothing to do with Galadriel’s phial, I should think - that seems to be Gandalf’s own power, whereas, as Nan-Tethren says, Galadriel’s phial contains the light of Earendil’s star.
mighty ent man 25/Nov/2006 at 03:30 AM
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Here is a link to the Ad Lore thread that I myself started on this very subject. In it you will find a lot of interesting information and quotes:

The Phial Of Galadriel

I will just briefly try to answer some of your questions though in here.

I would not use the word magical to describe the Phial for the kind of magic we think of does not really exist in Middle Earth. The Phial contained Water taken from I think Galadriels Mirror. Which in it trapped the light of Earendil. I am not too clued up on this so forgive me if I make mistakes. Essentially though the Phial only had water in it.

However you will see if you look at the thread I give above that I believe something of Galadirel herself was invested in the Phial. As when Sam and Frodo use it they feel as though someone else is speaking through them.

The Phial is a very interesting and complex object!

3RingsforEGG 26/Nov/2006 at 04:30 AM
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What an interesting thread and informative thread...too bad I missed it when it was being discussed.  But it does get you thinking about other things...

For example, Tolkien was never specific (just hints here and there) about Galadriel’s exact powers, though I think enough common sense evidence is there to prove that Galadriel was a powerful leader, fighter and sorceress (by elf standards, I think).

If indeed she can prepare a Phial for Frodo that had magical properties that could make Frodo and Sam speak Elvish and affect Shelob; we could get a glimpse as to what Tolkien may refer to as to why Lorien is a formidable kingdom due to Galadriel, and theoretically guess as to what she could have done to protect Lorien mystically, such as:

a) How Phial’s can she make her warriors? b)  What did she learn from Melian that can protect Lorien?  c) What part can Nenya play directly or indirectly for war?  Maybe not for war, but if it can preserve and heal the forests, then she could use it to regenerate the woods from damage?  d) She threw down the walls of Dol Guldur (with a song spell I would imagine as I can’t imagine her physically actually destroying it like She Hulk) e) She has great insight and can read minds (a very helpful strategy in battle), especially within her realm; f) she is sure have the ability for elemental control (water and wind for sure...I mean if Elrond can do it) g) she is old, have seen the light of two trees, etc...whatever benefit that brings h) I’m sure she esteemed enough to be aided by the Ents and Eagles if needed i) and last but not the least, she has brave and time tested army and dear husband (Celeborn is also impressive) enough to have Lorien build a reputation as an "eerie" or "point of no return" place.

:) 

Qtpie 26/Nov/2006 at 11:00 AM
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3RingsforEGG: You say that Galadriel can read people’s minds but the fact is that no one can read minds. Not even the Valar can do that. But maybe her great insight has something to do with predicting what people would do.
Sil 27/Nov/2006 at 02:47 AM
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Táragollion - perhaps not directly read minds, but they can certainly read people and the nature of their thoughts much more clearly, - rather like we mortals can often tell if someone is lying, but in a more refined way. Elves can communicate mind to mind, as Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan were doing on the way to Mithlond, and I would imagine that the Valar could do so to a much greater extent. Glaurung also exhibited a fair amount of mind control.

But what I wondered about is - if the Phial contains the light of Earendil, that is the light of the Silmaril - which in its turn is the light of the commingled Two Trees before their destruction. Could they not have been resurrected with this light? although I suppose it was too late by then, they could at least have perhaps been replaced to a lesser degree..?
mighty ent man 27/Nov/2006 at 07:50 AM
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3Rings - How Phial’s can she make her warriors? - I do not think the Phial is something that is meant for Elven warriors to use. It is a special gift given to Frodo in his time of need. Not to be used in big battles. She would not make them for her own kind ot use as a tool of battle.

What part can Nenya play directly or indirectly for war?  Maybe not for war, but if it can preserve and heal the forests, then she could use it to regenerate the woods from damage?   - I do not know a lot about this but I do know that the Ring enhanced her own powers thus allowing her influence over the land to be greater.

Tara - Yes but we see when the Fellowship encounter her in Lorien she seemed to be able to get inside their own minds and offer them things. She also conveys with Gandalf and Elrond using telepathy.

 

NineFingered 27/Nov/2006 at 09:44 PM
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Purrsephone, I don’t think that anything except the Silmarils could rekindle the light of the Trees. The Phial of Galadriel I think is not as intense and powerful as the Silmarils. I would like to know what would have happened if Shelob ate it, maybe she would have burned up inwards like Carcharoth. If not, then it’s obvious that the Phial is not as powerful as a Silmaril.  

But you have an interesting idea there, if Galadriel could make a Phial, surely the High Elves in Valinor could make one. That would make it a very common craft, however. It wouldn’t be as potent as the Silmarils, but more like the reflection from the Star of Earendil. I have a funny question now, why did Frodo take the Phial with him to Valinor? Was it for the purpose of guiding their ship, sort of like Earendil? But I didn’t think with such lords as were with him it would be necessary. Surely he could have left some memento for Sam besides the Red Book and Bag End (as if that was little) Hmmm....

Mirkwoodworker 28/Nov/2006 at 02:27 PM
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As written above, the light in the Phial was the light of Earendil’s star. The star is actually one of the Silmarils, and their light was the light of the Two Trees of Valinor. The light was therefore holy--wholly good, as it were. It repelled evil.

Perhaps it attracted evil as well. Morgoth stole the Silmarils because he lusted after their light--lusted, hated, and feared it. He wore them in his crown in Angband, though they were heavy and a burden to him. When he held them after stole them, they burned his hand.

I suppose even the wholly evil still desire the wholly good, if only to enslave or destroy it, and to deny others of whatever positive qualities something or someone good has.
Istanira 28/Nov/2006 at 02:50 PM
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I don’t know if this helps any, but I think it relates to what Treebeard told the Hobbits his first introductory chapter in TTT

’...It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Sauruman’s Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it....’

it seems like all the ’bad things’ don’t like the light--whether it’s the light of Earendil, the light of Sting, the light of the Sun (the light of the truth--Gollum) or what have you.
mighty ent man 29/Nov/2006 at 04:25 AM
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Istanira - Yes a good point there which could also be tied into the whole literary consensus that light = good and dark = bad. I think was what Tolkien was using, however he did simply create his own world based on what he felt was logical for it.

The light repelled Shelob because she probably did not like light in general but this kind of light being emitted from the Phial would have been stronger, and had Elvish connotations attached to it.

Qtpie 29/Nov/2006 at 09:22 PM
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I am inclined to agree with mighty ent man. Here’s some passages referring to Shelob and the light from the Phial of Galadriel.

’They wavered. Doubt came into then as the light approached. One by one they dimmed, and slowly they drew back. No brightness so deadly had ever afflicted them before. From sun and moon and star they had been safe underground, but now a star had descended into the very earth.’ The Two Towers: Shelob’s Lair

Shelob just wasn’t prepared for her encounter with the Phial of Galadriel and the brilliant light that it emitted.
3RingsforEGG 04/Dec/2006 at 03:35 AM
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Great posts!  If I remember in the books, correctly, however, the Phial had no light at all when they were in Mt. Doom.

I wonder whether its because its been used so many times already, or is it because they are just on Sauron’s realm?

And why did Galadriel did give Frodo the Phial?  Did she predict that he was going to encounter Shelob, or something else the light could have been useful for?  Maybe against the Nazgul?

Your thoughts.././.-

mighty ent man 04/Dec/2006 at 04:41 AM
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3Rings - Please provide the quote saying there was no light from the Phial in Moun Doom. I do not remember either Sam or Frodo ever using the Phial then.

She gave Frodo the Phial as she knew he was going to Mordor and knew that the Phial would aid him in his quest! He was entering dark and dangerous places and this is the highest and strongest gift she could give him.

Mithrandír 04/Dec/2006 at 08:47 AM
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3RingsforEGG: You say that Galadriel can read people’s minds but the fact is that no one can read minds.
oh my god, Targollion, do not remind me of this, for i have started a thread like this before, and take it from me, noone can read minds...
Qtpie 04/Dec/2006 at 06:17 PM
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Nan-Tathren:
Once again I have yet another quote to back up mighty ent man.

’And you Ring-bearer, he heard her say, remote but clear, for you I have prepared this...A light when all other lights go out!’  The Two Towers: Shelob’s Lair
Tuna 04/Dec/2006 at 06:31 PM
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mem- I believe this is what 3rings was talking about.

At first he could see nothing. In his great need he drew out once more the Phial of Galadriel, but it was pale and cold in his trembling hand and threw no light into that stifling dark. He was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in in Middle-earth; all other powers were here subdued. ~Mount Doom, ROTK

The Phial had power in the darkness of Shelob and contained the strength to get past the Watchers, yet it seems to have been absolutely powerLESS against the strength of Sauron as was concentrated in Mt. Doom.

Taragolloion- Cleaned up the double post.

Qtpie 04/Dec/2006 at 07:03 PM
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Tuna: Thanks When did you add the -thoniel part there?
mighty ent man 06/Dec/2006 at 02:52 AM
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Tara - Yes I had that quote directly in my mind when I wrote the stuff about why she gave him the Phial. I just did not know the exact wording so I did not include it in my post. Thanks!

Tuna - Thanks for that quote, and for the explanation. It makes perfect sense!

Qtpie 06/Dec/2006 at 08:54 PM
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mighty ent man: