??Sauron= Hitler??

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Ygdrazill 27/Nov/2006 at 01:47 PM
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I bet my entire sum of money that this subject been up here before, but i cant get it out of my mind, and i didint know either if you could search for previous topics, so im bringing it up to help me sleep better.

Well for starters i know Tolkien himself dont want his books to be compared to anything in real life or in history, hope you can forgive me John, but i have to  

Dont you all agree that when reading the LotR you draw parralells to the WW2? And I, as many others i belive, draws the parrallel between Sauron and Adolf Hitler himself. This comparation ive carried with me a long time, and it had not been altered untill i saw the extra material to the DvD:s, in whice some proffessionell intead drew the parralell between Sauron and Saruman! I dont think he had that much of evidence to support his theory, but enought to make me start thinking.

Remember this my friends: im not insisting that this is the accuall reallity, or mabey not even what me myself genuinly belive. But... I would like to hear your opinion. Does Hitler remindes you most of Sauron or Saruman? Does he have carachteristiscs that remindes you of both perhaps? Some other intressting parralells you have noticed?  Dont you agre with me on one single point then tell me so. Tell me everything.

But remember, im staying rather natural. I guess its a rather "delicate" matter.

Boromir88 27/Nov/2006 at 01:56 PM
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But Sauron didn’t believe there was a ’superior race’ and all other races were inferior...seeking to kill off all inferior races and promote the master race.  Sauron wanted to dominate and control all the races (as well as Middle-earth), not commit a mass extermination of those races he deemed ’inferior.’  So, I would disagree.  They are vaguely similar in the sense that they wanted to control the entire world (if they could)...but this could fall under several other leaders and is a rather loose/vague correllation.
Ygdrazill 27/Nov/2006 at 02:08 PM
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Sure do know what you mean. In its base its a rather stupid subjekt, most becouse of the many people that do share the "evil stamp" that Sauron has. But as I sead, I cant stop thinking about it and what wouldnt be a better way to release me of it then to discuss it?

And the proffesionell i was talking about did mention something about Saruman and Hitlers share of powerful vioces. How they could control many through just there speach. And perhaps there is a similarity. I guess it wasent Hitlers words that made the people do what they did, but it was the way he sead them. As is described with Saruman: if you would just listen to his words, you would find how simple and regular they were.

Nenarye 27/Nov/2006 at 02:13 PM
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Boromir88 - Yes, he didn’t belive that there was an inferior races, but he still wanted to kill all other "goodly" races, and rule over ME as a tyrant. Hilter also wanted to controll the whole world as a dictator, he just a little more picky about the people he killed. So yeah, I see your point, but I still think that Sauron and Hitler do have quite a few similarities.


Ygdrazill - Great point. I totally agree.
geordie 27/Nov/2006 at 02:27 PM
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This professional is on the extras on the theatrical release dvd, isn’t he? [correct me if I’m wrong here]. In general, it’s best to ignore that ’documentary’ - its only purpose is to show Tolkien’s characters in a light which Jackson chose to show them in his movie - so we have Saruman compared to Hitler; Aragorn to Roosevelt etc. It’s garbage. [there may have also been a brief mention on the EE dvd docs. too; I can’t remember now]. However, the EE dvd docs. on Tolkien are quite good, and reasonably accurate - with only a bit of PJ’s tweaking of Tolkien’s characters.

Anyway - this is a lore forum, and the movies have no place here - especially not here in the Books forum - but as it happens, the question of ’Hitler=Saruman’ has been raised before, and not just on the Plaza. This simple equation was made by several people in the 50s and 60s. The answer from Tolkien himself is; no. WWII has nothing to do with his story. He says so in one or more of his published Letters; and, more importantly, in the Foreword to the 2nd edition of LotR. He felt he had to make those comments to answer the critics who’d made this leap - but if he thought that people would read his rejection of that idea; or accept him at his word, he was mistaken.

Someone called Michael Gove was asking the same question last week in the Daily Telegraph. There’s nothing new under the sun.

Captain Bingo 27/Nov/2006 at 02:34 PM
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Hmm... Quite so. I think the Ring of Power Hitler made, the fact that his body was destroyed at the end of the 19th century & he managed to form himself another one in the 1930’s & was finally defeated in 1945 when an couple of infantrymen managed to throw said Ring into Mount Etna (with the resulting destruction of his Berlin Bunker) clinches the argument.

Oh, & Gandalf is really Jesus.....

I just hope no-one is going to start claiming Lord of the Rings is just a story - how boring would that be?
Ygdrazill 27/Nov/2006 at 02:46 PM
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Well I just see it like this: He creates a magnificant world, and It sure is, and from this its just natural for people to missinprent his work and to find personal meanings. This is a part for me why its just so magnificant. A fictionall world able to trigger people to think in ways they wouldnt think in other case. And paralells is a great part in missinprentation and in creating your own perception.

And honestly, I do respect his work, and he does own the rights to tell people why and on whice causes he wrote the books, but in hindering people from thinking out of his wants and beliefes, thats just not possible. So this thoughts is absolutely not spawned from seeing the films. There are parralells in the books, and even though i will allways know that this is not Tolkiens himself wanted, i can still discuss them couse i do belive its human to have the desire of greater knowledge  (Knowledge is perhaps not the most perfect word)

But i must admit that this topic should have been better placed in the "persons and creature" discussions.

halfir 27/Nov/2006 at 03:44 PM
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This is excerpted from my thread-Hitler Wasn’t Big Enough:

http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=46&TopicID=200212&PagePosition=2&PagePostPosition=1

"As ever, I am indebted to our ’source guru’ geordie to alerting me to the source that forms the basis of this thread -Eglerio-In Praise of Tolkien edt. by Anne Etkin Quest Communications Inc 1978,  a collection of short articles on Tolkien, including the  famous ’Times Obituary’ by C S Lewis.. X(

In his Foreword to FOTR, Tolkien, in opposing the idea that LOTR was in any way allegorical, comments specifically:

’The crucial chapter,’The Shadow of the Past’ is one of the oldest parts of the tale. It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed essentially along the same lines , if that disaster had been averted. Its sources are things long before in my mind, or in some cases already written, and little or nothing was modified by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.

The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion.’

Nan. C.L. Scott and her husband twice visited Tolkien at his Sandfield Road house in Oxford in the Spring of 1966.

In talking of Tolkien and allegory she recounts:

’Even more limiting than religious allegory, a narrow political interpretation of literature was his special detestation; and he spoke with scorn of the critics who had tried to reduce the War of the Rings to an analog of World War 11 with Hitler as Sauron, the Dark Lord.

"Hitler wasn’t big enough! He wasn’t important enough!" he told us, which was , perhapa, to say that Hitler was not mythic; for even Tolkien’s most lifelike and individualized characters  are larger than life as well and possess a mythic dimension that extends beyond one, age, one era, one war. {Nan C.L.Scott- Tolkien-Hobbit and Wizard- article in Eglerio-In Praise of Tolkien}.

Tolkien’s comments here compare well with his comments in Letter # 45, written to his son Michael in 1941 when he says:

’that ruddy little  ignoramus Adolf Hitler’

and Letter # 81 to CT written in 1944:

’We knew that Hitler was a vulgar and ignorant little cad.."

Indeed, as Ms. Scott says:

’Hitler was not mythic’.X("

 

 

Mirkwoodworker 27/Nov/2006 at 04:29 PM
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Halfir pretty much settles the argument, I think. Tolkien never thought of Sauron as being a literary version of Hitler.
KingODuckingham 27/Nov/2006 at 05:30 PM
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Well for starters i know Tolkien himself dont want his books to be compared to anything in real life or in history, hope you can forgive me John, but i have to Enjoy your exercise in futility, although I don’t know if you will get anything out of it.

All kidding aside, there really is no comparison. Read halfir’s post. It’s excellent. The comparison just doesn’t work. Sauron was conceived before Hitler’s rise to power, so it is just as reasonable to say Hitler is based on Sauron!
Really, if you are going to take your premise, we could take any character from any book series intent on world domination and compare him to any historical figure intent on the same thing. Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar. Sauron, Saruman, Morgoth, whoever.

If you’re basing your interpretation of the text of Tolkien, then the answer to your question is no.
halfir 27/Nov/2006 at 06:11 PM
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What is fascinating is to consider the fact that in LOTR in many ways art was anticipating nature i.e. the sub-created world became a template for the events in  RL that unfolded during WW2. This is perfectly summed up in Lewis’s perceptive comment on LOTR:

These things were not devised to reflect any particular situation in the real world. It was the other way round; real  events began, horribly, to conform to the pattern he had  freely invented.’ {cf. Carpenter-Biography- Chpt. The New Hobbit’}

In a letter to Fr. Peter Millward -22 Sept 1956, writing  about LOTR Lewis said:

’Tolkien’s book {The Fellowship of the Ring} is not an allegory- a form he dislikes. You’ll get the nearest  to his mind  on such subjects by studying his essay on Fairy Tales in the Essays presented to Charles Williams.{This is the 1939 Andrew Lang lecture now  more easly found in the compendium volume The Monsters and the Critics}.His root of narrative art is ’subcreation’ - the making of a secondary world. What you wd. call ’a pleasant  story for the children’ wd. be to him more serious than an allegory. But for his viewsread the essay, wh. is indispensable. {Letters of C S Lewis edt Warnie Lewis}

To C S Lewis’s recommendation of On Fairy Stories we can now add the essay on Smith of Wootton Major that Tolkien wrote,which is included for the first time in published form in Verlyn Flieger’s 2005 edt. of that work.

Ygdrazill 28/Nov/2006 at 01:38 AM
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I sure do like your style Halfir. You leave not much behind for consideration I know now why Tolkien so decisive could say that his world was unique and was not to be compared. Thanks for halping me. Never good not to be sertain, as I use to say.

halfir 28/Nov/2006 at 03:10 AM
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X(
Endril 28/Nov/2006 at 08:35 AM
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Ygdrazill:Well Hitler talked a lot and Sauron didn’t. Saruman did it just sometimes so no, they were not the same.

Allright, now the thing was a bit discussed before as you would probably know so yes, indeed Sauron and his army can be a bit like Hitler and his armyes. But there are no evident similarityes, thing that shows that Tolkien didn’t inspired from the realityes of that times and he didn’t used any alegory in his works.

halfir: Nice to see you arround.
Ygdrazill 29/Nov/2006 at 01:59 AM
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Legolas: Dont really think your complain concerning the voices were fair. Remember, this story is told from the "good guys" perspective. I dont really think someone of the "good guys" in the WW2 heard more of Hitlers speaches then we do of Sarumans when we read the LotR. Who knows how much he used his vioce to convince people when the story tells of something els.

Nenarye 29/Nov/2006 at 12:32 PM
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Ygdrazill - You make a good point, but I’m not sure I agree. Sure, the common infantry might not have payed atention to Hitler’s speaches, but Winston Churchill and other members within the Goverment did pay attention to his speaches. (Which, I assume is a wise thing to do when at war)

I hardly think of Aragorn, Legolas, Gandalf, Theoden, etc. as infantry . . .
But, yeah, I guess it would be harder to moniter Sauron’s "speaches" that that of Hitler, but still . . .
Ygdrazill 29/Nov/2006 at 01:57 PM
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Hmm well then I guees it depends on how you individually reads the books. Me myself see the fellowship as the heroes that acts in the war and not just passive, like for example Elrond. He does not himself fight in the war physiqly, but mentaly. And just because we readers follows the fellowship, I read it just like if i was reading a novell written from the perspective of solidiers from the war, if we now are to compare those two subjects. Hope you understand what im trying to say

Anyway, rather stupid even bring it up for discussion couse this is two very different worlds with two very diffrent ways in mather of time and inventions. Perhaps Aragorn would know more speaches of Saruman if he had a radio and access to the recordings of the speches

Curubethion 29/Nov/2006 at 05:56 PM
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I think one of the major reasons this parallel is often drawn is because Tolkien did live during the times of WWII. And indeed, to a degree, Hitler was the basis for Sauron. But not in the way of allegory. Rather, it made Tolkien highly aware to the possibility of pure evil. Saddam Huessein could just as easily have been a "basis" for Sauron.

It’s essentially because Hitler falls into the archetype of pure evil. Tolkien’s Sauron also falls into this archetype. And while they might have some similarities, they do have differences. Sauron, as noted above, wished to enslave Middle-Earth, not to cleanse it of all non-orcs. He might have had a huge army, but he also had allies. And he never turned on his allies. He put all of his power into one weapon...Hitler put his power into his speeches and terror of his secret police.

Notice something interesting...Saruman most definitely has some other parallels to Hitler, given his gift of speech and his manipulative powers.

KingODuckingham 29/Nov/2006 at 07:23 PM
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And indeed, to a degree, Hitler was the basis for Sauron. No he wasn’t--it was natural coincidence based on the fact that LOTR behaves like a real world with real people. Sauron was conceived of before WWII or Hitler’s rise to power, and therefore cannot possibly be based on Hitler anymore than the wheel can be based off the car. If Sauron seems like Hitler, it is because of connections the reader is drawing, not Tolkien.
Nenarye 29/Nov/2006 at 09:52 PM
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Ygdrazill - Like I said, it would be a liitle bit harder to listen to Sauron’s "speaches" . . . now if he had a color TV . . .
Boromir88 29/Nov/2006 at 10:42 PM
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halfir, king

Hitler was a skilled speaker, but not in the sense that I think a lot of people believe.  Hitler was smart and skilled in the sense that he told the German people exactly what they wanted to hear.  The German people were downtrodden and angry at the Weimar Republic because of the treaty they signed at the end of WW1, also then the great depression hit and hit Germany hard.  When people are struggling they never want to hear they are the problem for their own struggles, they want a scapegoat, and Hitler gave them the scapegoats.  So, he was an intelligent speaker in the sense that he told the Germans exactly what they wanted to hear, not that he was in any way a skilled orator...a lot of his speeches were just mad ramblings about how democracy was evil and Germany needed a dictatorship.  Then once he got that, he made the deemed inferior races the targets.

So, even the comparison between Hitler’s speeches and Saruman’s are a loose tie at best.  What Saruman possesses is a great oratory skill.  It’s not what he says, but  how he says it and how he delivers it.  Saruman had a power in his voice.  He used power/authority when he needed to, but he could also speak fair and pitiable to lull those he wanted to:
The window closed.  They waited.  Suddenly another voice spoke, low and melodious, its very sound an enchantment.  Those who listened unwarily to that voice could seldom report the words that they heard; and if they did, they wondered, for little power remained in them.  Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves.  When others spoke they seemed harsh and uncouth by contrast; and if they gainsaid the voice, anger was kindled in the hearts of those under the spell.
[...]
The riders gazed up at Theoden like startled men out of a dream.  Harsh as an old raven’s their master’s vocie sounded in their ears after the music of Saruman...~The Voice of Saruman
Saruman had a power with his voice.  He was able to put those under a spell-like state where everything he said seemed wise and reasonable...the ’music of Saruman’.

Hitler on the other hand, like I talked about above, didn’t have stellar oratory skills.  The majority of his speeches started out rather slow and boring then he would pick up to an angry babbling.  It was mostly a matter of what he said, because he said what the German people wanted to hear.  He already used their bitterness towards the Weimar Republic and the Jews to simply ’throw wood on the fire’ so to say.

I can’t see any real comparison except for the fact that Hitler, Sauron, and Saruman were awful dictators that wanted to rule the world (one being a fictional world ).

Ygdrazill 29/Nov/2006 at 11:11 PM
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Please take my words for that I did not think that Hitler and Sauron had similarities and one of them were thiere speaaches.... When even do Sauron exercise a power of the vioce? never ever. I dont even think his voice gives any speciall power in The Silmarillion, perhaps exept his song against Fingolfin or who it was, can really remember. It was Saruman and hitler who shared the vioce thing, dont know where from you got that I thought it was Sauron who had that similarity.

If now Saruman too already "lived" before Hitlers first apparences, then is that argument to impossible. And if now that were the case, that would be pretty amazing  Two persons, mastering thiere vioces, born to the known world under that small period of time, what are the odds?

Boromir88 30/Nov/2006 at 06:49 AM
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I didn’t say Sauron had a power in his voice...I said Saruman did.  I noticed some people made a comparison to Hitler’s ability of ’speech’ and that of Saruman’s.  Saruman was a skilled orator and had a great power in his voice.  Hitler took the beliefs of his people (The Weimar Republic was weak and the Jews need out of Germany) and gave the people exactly what they wanted to hear.  So, even if one argues that both with their  Voices were able sway people’s opinion, it was through different means.  Saruman was just a great speaker, Hitler was smart and told his people what they wanted to hear.
Nenarye 30/Nov/2006 at 09:19 AM
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Boromir88 - True True.
Curubethion 30/Nov/2006 at 01:35 PM
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Hitler wasn’t a powerful orater, but he had a charisma about him that was undeniable. That’s one of the reasons he was so successful. In a way, you could say Saruman also had that charisma, but in a magical way. Notice that it wasn’t oration skills, but a spell cast by his voice, that was his power.
Ygdrazill 30/Nov/2006 at 01:49 PM
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Indeed it was, but if we look on Stalin he, as many others to, convinced people with force and brutallity, murder and threats. Im not going to say Hitler didnt, but Hitler did, as you all say and you are right, have a speciall power of convincing people in the "magical" way. They stood there and listened and watched him an they agreed with him! It might have been because his speaches reached out and sead what most people knew but didnt dare to say, but he did it with his voice and body alone. Other dictators (talking in some way the same degree as Hitler) did not have that power. You are all very right, this is just what I think so you dont missunderstand me  Hitler and Saruman share that power. Perhaps the one was borne before the other, but they did share it.
gilnaur 01/Dec/2006 at 12:11 PM
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Another difference was that Hittler commited suicide and Sauron was defeated. Once Hitler found out that his plan wasnt working he retreated and gave up, Sauron started amassing his armys for another attack.

 

Arvellas 02/Dec/2006 at 06:22 PM
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Well of course all those widely-disliked guys have something in common: they’re not nice!
Seriously, though, I have never found any parallels between LOTR and RL wars.  Aragorn=Roosevelt? I never would have come up with that.  It seems that whenever a bad guy tries to take over, people always want to compare it to another bad guy taking over, even if the similarities come to an abrupt halt after that.

Narion elves-Welcome to the Plaza and to the Lore Fora!

Endril 03/Dec/2006 at 12:50 PM
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A fantasy war is very easy taken as an alegory because of the fantastic, mithic factor inside the story. But in Tolkien’s case and maybe in others too that’s not true at ll. Vella: nice to have you back my lore friend. You are right. Bad guys and good ones have lots in common.
Tenharien Calmcacil 03/Dec/2006 at 01:50 PM
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I guess I never really compared the lord of the rings, sauron to hitler. I never thought about it. I dont know why the thought never crossed my mind because there are some good points here .But it does occur to me that whenever some huge evil is involved, often they are compared to hitler.
KingODuckingham 03/Dec/2006 at 05:03 PM
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But it does occur to me that whenever some huge evil is involved, often they are compared to hitler. Because he was the great evil of the Twentieth Century. If we lived in the 1800’s, it would have been compared to Napoleon (most likely, since it was written in Britain). Who knows, maybe people would have seen Britain as a sort of Valinor or Numenor, and that Tolkien saw the need for them to intervene in the ME that would be Continental Europe. Hey wait. That’s not a bad analogy at all!   The point is, Hitler is not special in his analogousness. Like Arvellas said, besides their megalomania, Sauron and Hitler have little in common.
Ygdrazill 04/Dec/2006 at 10:03 AM
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Well ofcourse they dont have that much in common when you are just alking about the way of the personallity and just the person. I think that I compared Sauron to Hitler just because all context of the LotR is similar to Ww2. Without Saruman, Gandalf, Aragorn, Elrond etc etc, there would not be any single comparation between Hitler and Sauron. This is what i mean, there are many key persons in LotR and there are many in Ww2 so I got the impression that they are somhow alike, in the way of battles and characters. I know now that Sauron himself was allready made when the world got knowledge of hitler, and it doesent matter, LotR is similar to Ww2 when all of it is compared. Allmost every aspect must be counted for if you are to see the likeness when it is as clearest.

I see now that i could have refrased my question somehow, i mean are the caracters in LotR so alike someone in the war that they could have been fitted in to it, and then who would it be?

And as I hope we all know, there has just been two World Wars and the second one fitts, according to me, better in with the context of LotR. And as in general, I belive you only can compare LotR to any World War, and in that categorie, as sead, i think the second one fitts in the most.

Wilibald Bumble 04/Dec/2006 at 06:36 PM
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Sauron did not believe of a "superior race" like Adolf Hitler. In this book Sauron himself wants to destroy all the Good of Middle-Earth. If Sauron was an orc then we would think it was based of World War II as it would justify the claims of a "superior race" of orcs laying dominion over Middle Earth. But that is not to be. Sauron was but a Lt. of Morgoroth and a Maia. And J.R.R. Tolkien has himself said that it is not in anyway related to any real life event but it is a fantasy depicted entirely of its own. I know critics’ have claimed this idea. But instead of that I would rather listen to the author himself!

Wilibald Bumble at your service and your family’s

Wolfwood 04/Dec/2006 at 06:51 PM
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Because Lord of the Rings was written in the time period of WWII, I can understand why scholars would make the comparison between Sauron and Hitler. However, Sauron did not believe in a "superior race" as has been mentioned. Saruman is more like Hitler because of his great oratory skills, hence the chapter "The Voice of Saruman." Also, Saruman did make the Uruk-Hai, but I don’t think this was his superior race. Yes, they were superior to Orcs, but I don’t think of them as an overall "superior race."

I don’t think any comparisions can ever totally be correct between LOTR and WWII. Tolkien was writing about good vs. evil, not anyone in particular. Of course, there will be similarities, but overall, the theme is not specific. It’s very broad and relatable to everyday life.

Dragon Heart 04/Dec/2006 at 08:23 PM
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Yes there are simalarities bewteen the two of them though there are more differences. They are alike because they both undermined "allainces" that they made to gain more power and influence. Though Sauron did not blame his defeats on any one group, unlike Hitler. Also they are alike because they both had alot of land that they took by force.
KingODuckingham 04/Dec/2006 at 10:10 PM
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Also they are alike because they both had alot of land that they took by force
And so did Abraham Lincoln, and George Washington, and Queen Elizabeth I, and Queen Victoria, and Julius Caesar, and Charlemagne, and Genghis Khan, and any number of historical figures you care to name!
Ygdrazill 05/Dec/2006 at 05:59 AM
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KingODuckinghamn i know there are aloth of people that can be fitted in to the description, or just the work, of Sauron. But I sort of want you to look beyond just the person and perhaps relate to something larger and more exstensive, perhaps somthing like a lerge war or a specific period of time through out our history. And from that frame you can try to find similarities.

I am looking for something more like this : Rohan and the USA both had thiere own problems but did eventually join the war together with the others and came and saved the day. Some sort of far fetched but any how, those similarities, not Sauron was evil, then he is just like any other "evil" person through out history. I do not say it must be WWII but me myself can find aloth of, perhaps far fetched, similarities between that war and LotR.

I only think its fun to use your imagination alittle bit, and even thought Tolkien told us this was no allegorical story, there can be no harm in comparing alitle bit

Lord of the Rings 05/Dec/2006 at 09:27 AM
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myself can find aloth of, perhaps far fetched, similarities between that war and LotR.

Of course, because many wars have many of the same events. Countries have allies who come to their aid, and there are battles which are turned near the end, and so on and so forth. But there aren’t any particularly compelling similarities between the War of the Ring and WWII. Where’s the desert war? What’s Enigma? Where is the USSR? Where’s Japan? Is there a Pearl Harbor? A Midway? D-Day? And going the other way, where’s the destruction of the Ring? The Paths of the Dead and the Black Fleet? The attacks on Lothlorien and Mirkwood?

As much fun as it can be to imagine things, a little more grounding in the facts is needed for it to be a compelling exercise. The fundamental structures of these wars are different; they are only similar to the extent that any two instances where you get a bunch of people killing each other on a large and organized scale are going to be similar. Trying to draw any closer comparisons is ineffective, strained, and misleading. There are much more fruitful lines of inquiry.
Boromir88 05/Dec/2006 at 11:11 AM
Merchant of Minas Tirith Points: 3627 Posts: 2473 Joined: 24/Mar/2005

I only think its fun to use your imagination alittle bit, and even thought Tolkien told us this was no allegorical story, there can be no harm in comparing alitle bit~Ygdrazil

I disagree, trying to compare the two debases both of them.  It makes it look like Sauron was meant to be Hitler, and Hitler is like Sauron.  When they are not, they are two different people (one a real person another ’made-up’) but both have their own motives and their own personality.

Also, I happen to disagree with the Sauron and Hitler’s primary goal.  Hitler’s primary goal wasn’t to gain more land for his ’Aryan race’ and it wasn’t to win the war.  Hitler and the Nazi’s primary goal was to wipe out the inferior races.  If his primary goal was to win the war why did he spend time and resources in 1942-43 (the turning point when Germany began losing World War II and losing ground) to murdering Jews and other people’s.  You will find that Hitler (and the Nazi’s) spent more time and soldiers killing the ’inferior’ races during the time period when Germany was actually losing World War II then during any other period.  Which should quite convincingly show the Nazi’s were more focused spending time on wiping out the so called ’inferior’ races than actually winning the war and winning more land.

Sauron’s primary goal was to defeat the people of Middle-earth.  He wanted to do so as quickly as he could.  He was focused on tying up possible allies to Gondor (Rohan, the Elves of Lorien and Mirkwood, and the Dwarves of Erebor).  He spent soldiers and resources to tie up those other places that may wish to ally and help Minas Tirith.  Then when Aragorn reveals himself to Sauron in the palantir, he is struck with immediate fear so he launches his assault on Minas Tirith sooner than he had planned.  Some seem to argue Sauron wanted his ring back more than winning the war, but I would disagree.  If he spent half the amount of people and efforts he took to crush the defenses of the West as he did trying to find the Ring, he probably would have gotten the Ring.  Sure Sauron wanted to try to find his Ring, but that seemed to take a back-hand seat to annihilating his opponents and defeating them.

So, you can see again, the differences between the two, and I think it’s debasing to both their characters to try and force them to be similar when they really weren’t except in a loosely connected correlation.

Laielinwen 05/Dec/2006 at 11:40 AM
New Soul Points: 31115 Posts: 27324 Joined: 16/Mar/2002

Excellent post and point Boromir! I agree.

As for the subject of the thread in general...
I believe that a person that writes draws on what he/she knows. Also, one may look specifically at evil type people or not when writing of a character that is evil. Even if a writer doesn’t use someone specific as a model or use allegory, as we live we gather information into our brain databases that compile the characteristics of a type of person... evil for example. hehe When we write of someone evil we have a life of experiences that help us form the images/concepts we write of.

Basically it does come down to what the man himself said. IF you want to be accurate. And as has been said here numerous times in multiple ways... Tolkien said No.

Of course one can choose not to believe the author when  he has spoken specifically but that really is a waste of time... unless you are just into the ’what if’ and speculatings.

I can put on a duck suit and waddle around quacking all day. Saying I look and sound like a duck really does not make me duck.  At least I hope not!

Ygdrazill 05/Dec/2006 at 01:35 PM
Thief of Mordor Points: 315 Posts: 63 Joined: 09/Sep/2006

Exelent posts!! That is exactly what I want Boromir88. You really give the opposite of me the best of faces! I know now that many many thinks unlike me, that its a sort of sin to do something that Tolkien told you not to, and i appriciate you the most when you wrights like Brormir88. I want facts that unables my way of thinking, NOT only the fact that i am accually thinking wrongly.

Lord of the rings : now you mention some of the countries and persons to compare, and i asume you mean thoose are not in your mind able to compare to the LotR. Well if you say like this, Japan can be compared to Isengard if you like me think that Rohan and USA has some similarities. Japan got USA in to the war, and Saruman did in a way get Rohan in to the war. I dont say Gandalf wouldnt succed in getting Rohan "in" to the war, but it went faster, just as USA might have joined the war even thought Japan didint attacj Pearl Harbour. And both Isengard and Japan left thiere targets sort of scared before they joined.

the "title" of the black fleet could be given to perhaps Italia? They were stoped before they had the chance to come to Hitlers aid. I mean I dont do this to accually point out sertain facts, just to have some "fun".

Boromir88 05/Dec/2006 at 01:51 PM
Merchant of Minas Tirith Points: 3627 Posts: 2473 Joined: 24/Mar/2005

Thankyou ygdrazill, I greatly appreciate your comments and compliments.

I can put on a duck suit and waddle around quacking all day. Saying I look and sound like a duck really does not make me duck.~laelinwen
Is it strange of me to actually want to see somebody waddling around quacking in a duck suit?

KingODuckingham 05/Dec/2006 at 02:04 PM
Grey Counsellor of Isengard Points: 15053 Posts: 15390 Joined: 27/Aug/2006
I would prefer not to see ducks debased that way, actually.
Laielinwen 06/Dec/2006 at 01:49 AM
New Soul Points: 31115 Posts: 27324 Joined: 16/Mar/2002
 I’d never ever debase a duck!
Mor Rana 18/Dec/2006 at 12:24 AM
Horse-lord of the Mark Points: 1345 Posts: 1454 Joined: 07/Jun/2005
I think the comparison is very legitimate.  You opened up by saying something true, that Tolkieb abhorred allegory, and that he did not want any real life comparrisons in his book.  But what he also had acknowledge, and I think this is true of any writer, including us and all of us doing RPG’s.  Is that his writings, our writings, everyone’s writings are influenced or, dare I say, inspired but what goes on around us, or by something about us.  Tolkien did not believe in allegory, however his world view still came out on many occassions.  Further, Sauron may not have delivered powerful moving speaches, however he played the people’s minds much the way Hitler did.  He would use what people feared.  The Germans of the time feared econimic destruction, Hitler found a scapegoat for that fear, and used people’s emotions to sway them.  Does not Frodo (in the books, Faramir in the movies) make the reference as to what lie or fear has lead potentially good people to fight on the side of Sauron.  There were recorded instances of many Nazi soldiers who were good hearted and caring people, but they were either led to fight by fear, or some lie, or both.
KingODuckingham 18/Dec/2006 at 05:59 AM
Grey Counsellor of Isengard Points: 15053 Posts: 15390 Joined: 27/Aug/2006
The point is not that the comparison is illegitimate, but rather that Tolkien did not make the comparison and did not have the comparison in mind when he wrote the book. We can of course make the comparison, but as I said before we can also make the comparison to Napoleon, the Caesars, and Alexander the Great. It’s just coincidence, essentially, that Hitler happened to rise just before LOTR was published.
Oin 18/Dec/2006 at 06:46 PM
Architect of Erebor Points: 11372 Posts: 8807 Joined: 14/Feb/2004

Mor Rana: Actually, the person you are referencing is Sam, who ponders the question of why the soldiers from Harad fought as he stared at one of the casualties of Faramir and his company’s ambush of a Haradrim column.

I will say this - although KingO and geordie and all others who say that any comparison with Hitler to Saruman and Sauron is completely unintended by the author is correct, if I were to compare with with Hitler Saruman is the obvious candidate. Why? Because both were renowned (and feared) for their oratory.  Hitler was one of the greatest orators of all time, and Saruman had an unnatural gift for speech as well, and it was through speaking that he wove many of his "spells". But that is just an observation, not a claim that they were remotely similar in any way.

Mor Rana 18/Dec/2006 at 11:19 PM
Horse-lord of the Mark Points: 1345 Posts: 1454 Joined: 07/Jun/2005

ah, you are correct Oin, it was Sam.  As I said before, I do not believe there was an INTENTIONAL co-relation.  However, just taking what was in his mind, in his conscience or sub conscience, they very well could be comparable.  You do make a good point on the Sarumon to Hitler comparison, however, there is another interesting note here as well.  In WW II Mussalini was Hitler’s little lackey.  Yes, Italy was strong, but not nearly as strong as Germany.  Isn’t it interesting that Sarumon, though powerful, was really just Sauron’s little lackey??  Sarumon may have thought he had a great power, much like Mussalini, who was a pompous arse.  But the real power was Sauron, or Hitler.  Again, I do not believe either that any co-relation was intentional.  But these co-relations were there none the less.  It is also well noted, Oin, that these little "co-relations" are in no way shape or form 100% dedicated to any individual, but surface where there is need, suggesting that some of the co-relations really are entirely coincidence and not even from any level of consciousness or sub-consciousness.

KingODuckingham 19/Dec/2006 at 07:55 AM
Grey Counsellor of Isengard Points: 15053 Posts: 15390 Joined: 27/Aug/2006
Mor Rana: I love your signature.

The key point in all of this being: that is just an observation. It is not wrong to make such observations, nor impossible. But those that don’t make such observations are not missing anything the author intended them to understand.
Boromir88 19/Dec/2006 at 08:10 AM
Merchant of Minas Tirith Points: 3627 Posts: 2473 Joined: 24/Mar/2005

Oin, by watching some tapes or listening to people who have, they wonder how Hitler got people ’empowered’ because his voice was probably about as bad as Neville Chamberlain’s.   It was a very shrill and unpleasant voice...he started out rather slow then towards the end built up into a rage against the scapegoats he created.  Hitler had used what the German people believed to get them to do what he wanted (which was become dictator and wipe out everyone that wasn’t of the Aryian race).  In fact when Hitler was jailed for treason.  Treason was a very serious and punishable offense, yet Hitler got off easy (I think it was 3 months or so)...The reasoning is the court didn’t believe he would amount to much.  Eventhough he was going around trying to get the German people to his side, the courts exactly felt he wasn’t the ’leader type’ (ironic hey).  They felt if they just jail him for a bit, he’d disappear and would cease to cause problems.  Since they believed he wasn’t a leader and he wouldn’t be able to get the German people behind him...again it’s rather ironic, but if you hear his voice, I think one would agree.

It wasn’t Hitler’s voice that was empowering, I think it was a combination of using what the German people believed and getting them to act on their feelings...also despite his horrible voice, he would build up at the end into sort of a ’fiery passion.’

Mor Rana at times I thought that the Sauron-Saruman relationship was actually closer to the Hitler-Stalin pact.  Hitler and Stalin’s ’Non-Agression Pact’ was a tense relationship.  They didn’t like eachother because Hitler and Germany didn’t like communists and the feeling was mutual.  However, Hitler didn’t want to fight a two-front war so he got Stalin to sign a non-aggression pact where they agreed not to fight eachother for at least 10 years.  Stalin knew Hitler was going to go back on his word, he knew Hitler was going to turn on him and attack him, but signing this pact would buy the Soviets time to get ready and prepare.  It was a strained ’alliance’ as both sides didn’t like eachother, they just agreed not to fight eachother.  As Hitler wanted to avoid a two-front war and Stalin wanted to prepare and do his own business.

As we see with the Sauron-Saruman relationship, I think it’s quite similar.  I’m not saying this is what Tolkien meant to do (as I highly doubt he intended it)...however, I do see similarities.  Saruman was buying his own time.  He didn’t like Sauron, he wanted the Ring for himself so he could become Lord of the Rings and rule over Middle-earth.  And to achieve this he felt like the best thing to do at the time was to join with Sauron and wait for his oppurtunity:
"A new Power is rising.  Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all.  There is no hope left in Elves or dying Numenor.  This then is one chioce before you, before us.  We may join with that Power.  It would be wise, Gandalf.  There is hope that way.  Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it.  As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise,  such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it.  We can bid our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the hight and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered by our weak or idle friends.  There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means."~The Council of Elrond
Of course Saruman has fallen under corruption and turned from the ’right path.’  However, he still doesn’t like Sauron, but feels like to achieve his own goals (getting the Ring and ruling Middle-earth) joining Sauron would be the best option for him.

I think it’s also safe to say that Sauron knew what Saruman was up to:

’Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool.  But the Great Eye is on him.~The Uruk-hai (Grishnakh)

’But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron’s, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.’~The Black Gate Opens (The Mouth of Sauron)

Sauron knew full well what Saruman was planning and what he was up to.  But Sauron felt like he could deal with all the ’goody-goody’ guys first and then boot out Saruman from Isengard.  Saruman though joining with Sauron, was planning to back stab him, as we all know there can’t be two ’dark lords’ over Middle-earth.