After elves left

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Annuicalar 01/Dec/2006 at 12:54 AM
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I was wondering what had happen after elves leaved Middle-earth. What happened to their palaces, to their cities? Are they abandoned yet? Did men, dwarves and hobbits occupated them? Do somebody live in this places now?

I can’t imagine places such as Mirkwood palace, Lothlorien or Rivendel to be empty. Did the elves kings said who must take control over their lands? I can see Arwen visiting Rivendel during his life with Aragorn, but... do this place belong to them?

 

Brandywine74 01/Dec/2006 at 01:03 AM
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I imagine they will fade away. Any elves that stayed on themselves dwindle until they become ’a rustic folk of dell and cave’ in Galadriel’s words. Eventually there will be no trace left of them except what the rocks say, as they did in Hollin. Only Legolas could hear them lament the passing of the elves.

I think you should also realise that LOTR is not a true history- the places do not actually exist.

Endril 01/Dec/2006 at 02:50 PM
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Brandywine: Doesn’t matter if it doesn’t exist.  The question is great.

Annuicalar: Well, if the elves didn’t inhabited the places they were probably abandoned and finally become one with the places in which they existed. Maybe the forest engulfed all the buildings that prooved that someone lived there sometime. That’s happening today with ruins too.
Aikanár 01/Dec/2006 at 05:45 PM
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Once the Elves left, I thing that everything would fall into decay, though more because of the abnsence of the elves’ power than them actually being gone. The age of the elves was over, and so, unless someone like Aragorn, preserved places like imladris, I think that they would have fallen into ruin, sooner if not later.
Harlondir Helcaraxë 01/Dec/2006 at 06:46 PM
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But even decaying or falling into ruin would take a long time. It takes a long time for a place to be completely devoid of the memory of Elves, if they dwelt there once. Even if the later people tried to preserve, how would they do it ? Aragorn did not have modern scientific methods, I’m sure.
Vugar 02/Dec/2006 at 01:20 AM
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Things did not dwindle so quickly after Sauron’s defeat and the end of the Third Age.  Mirkwood was renamed Eryn Lasgalen by Thranduil and Celeborn upon their meeting, and it was also consequently divided between them.  Rivendell was occupied into the Fourth Age by Elrond’s sons Elladan and Elrohir after his departure, and seemed to remain for quite some time.  Precisely how long it remained is unknown.
Lifur 02/Dec/2006 at 01:09 PM
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You’re forgetting that the fourth age also saw the establishment of a new elvish realm, Legolas removing to Ithilien, with a host of elves from Mirkwood.  Presumably this continued for at least a while after Legolas went over the sea? 

KingODuckingham 02/Dec/2006 at 03:52 PM
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It is said (I believe in one of the appendices) that after Aragorn’s death, Arwen went and wandered alone in Lothlorien on the abandoned hills among the mallorns. (not a quote and not a paraphrase, just a statement of mine) So Lothlorien, apparently, was pretty much deserted not too long into the Fourth Age.
Aikanár 02/Dec/2006 at 06:54 PM
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I guess that Tokien kind of intended that now would be after the elves, or something along those lines. the Age of Men. I dunno. Middle wearth would deffenitely undergo alot of major changes after the elves left, and it would probably become more like what we know of ancient history.
Arweniel* 03/Dec/2006 at 04:53 AM
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If Rivendell was abandoned and fell into decat, what do you think happened to the great library of Elrond?  Would he have taken all the books and scrolls with him or would Aragorn have taken them to Minas Tirith?
Qtpie 03/Dec/2006 at 08:58 AM
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Elrond’s sons, Elladan and Elrohir, I believe stayed in Middle-earth for a while after their father passed into the West. So I suppose that the brothers gave the books and scrolls to Aragorn, for his library.
Arvellas 03/Dec/2006 at 11:00 AM
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I do not know where the quote is, regrettably, but somewhere Tolkien tells us quite plainly that Rivendell was completely emptied out, some time in the Fourth Age.  As for Lorien, when the power of Nenya left and the Elves went west, I believe it would gradually go back to being a fairly normal forest.  Mirkwood, I believe, would also go back to being a normal environment.  In short, as the Elves left and those that remained faded, the world would simply forget them.
Oin 07/Dec/2006 at 07:38 PM
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Arvellas: The reference to Rivendell is in LotR where Tolkien mentions the gardens of Elrond where none now dwell, or something along those lines. While you are correct about Lorien and Rivendell, I think Northern Mirkwood - or Northern Greenwood, to be precise - likely stayed the same, as I suspect most of the Silvan elves of that nation, and the Sindarin royalty (Legolas being the exception) remained there for many years in the future.
Durin of Moria 07/Dec/2006 at 08:49 PM
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I believe they will be added to the Reunited Kindom. Arwen is the only child of Elrond that live still in Middle-Earth during the fourth Age, so it is natural that Rivendell should be passed on to the son of Arwen, Eldarion. Celebbrant was the only child of Galadriel thus Lothlorien should be passed on to the child of Elrond and eventually to Eldarion.
Qtpie 07/Dec/2006 at 09:03 PM
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Durin: Actually, the fates of Elladan and Elrohir still remains a mystery to us. All we know is that the brothers continued to stay in Rivendell even after Elrond left across the Sea. So they too were present in Rivendell I think during the Fourth Age. Also you mean Celebrian right? Celebrant was a river.
NineFingered 11/Dec/2006 at 04:18 PM
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I agree with Arvellas. The forests of Lorien would become a normal forest in time, and only those learned in lore or maybe of elven blood would feel anything when there. (Besides, the grave of Arwen lies there, so Eldarion would be sort of attached to the place again". And mallorn do not die easily, do not fade away, because we know that Sam planted one that lived for nobody know’s how long. I would say Rivendell became a wonderful place of waters and nature, where maybe the presence of long-gone elves can be felt, as a kind of peace and quiet. You get those feelings when you’re in an abandoned ruin: sort of like you can hear the wind and maybe even voices of long ago( it’s the romantic streak in me). Mirkwood I think would stay the same, but elves woudl grow even more cautious of other creatures and would hardly be seen, except perhaps as fleeing shadows. Gondor will not fogert them soon, but the elves will probably over time turn into legends, like with the Rohirrim.That’s my idea of the fading of the elven realms.
Battlehamster 11/Dec/2006 at 06:14 PM
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What a sad thought.  I can imagine Mirkwood as a normal forest, and I suppose Lothlorien maybe too, but when I was reading this an image popped into my head of the age-old ruins of Rivendell, with all meaning and history diminished except for as old legends, like Stonehenge or something.
malren 11/Dec/2006 at 07:48 PM
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I agree with NineFingered and Battlehamster. it would be sad, and I have a romantic streak, as well! I’ve been to a lot of battlefields in the US and you get that feeling of voices, history, lore, all of it. As if a time loop is playing and those hallowed parcels of ground kep relaying their histories over and over again. I think Lothlorien and Rivendell would probably still remain, but would be nothing more then legendary places. (Much like Avalon).
Kaulargorn 13/Dec/2006 at 04:45 AM
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The elves dominions after the great ring was destroyed would fade throughout time as their rings didn’t have any power now.In the ’Return of the king’ is mentioned in the end that some elves stayed in middle Earth and some became an agricultural nation while others lived in caves in the mountains.Another clever thing that Tolkien did.It makes you wonder if elven blood could continue live through mankind for a long time after the departure of the elves
Naduil 16/Dec/2006 at 04:29 AM
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I think that some kind of guardian spirit watches over the homes of the elves. Nothing evil will ever live there. I think the elves only left to replenish their numbers and will return someday, and reinhabitate (I think that that’s a word) their dwellings.
NineFingered 16/Dec/2006 at 09:56 AM
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Naduil, I think you’re ideas are very nice, but they don’t have any foundation in Tolkien’s work, do they? Probably their old homes will remain unsullied, because a remnant of their presence can be felt, which in a way I guess you could say is a "guardian spirit", except that it is not a person but a feeling, if I can explain myself. Surely fell beasts and orcs will feel that they are not welcome at Rivendell and Lorien, despite their being empty. Besides, the elves will never return to ME in glory, to "re-inhabitate" their dwellings. They went to Valinor, beyond the confines of the known world, and those who remained will slowly fade as the world changes into a world of Men.
Oin 16/Dec/2006 at 02:35 PM
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Naduil: NineFingered is correct - those are no based in Tolkien’s works and are incorrect in any event. After all, Eregion was destroyed by Sauron, the Elves of Mirkwood were forced to move north 3 times, and thats without counting all the destruction in the First Age. And the Elves would not return either - once in Valinor or Tol Eressea they would stay there until Arda Remade was created at the End. And it is certainly possible for evil beings to attack Lorien or Rivendell after they were gone - except there were none left. Dol Guldur was destroyed, the Reunited Kingdom was swiftly becoming more powerful, and orcs and fell beasts were either waning in population or utterly destroyed. That is a far more reasonable explanation than a "guardian spirit".

Battlehamster 16/Dec/2006 at 02:50 PM
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True, but there were still the stones in Eregion lamenting the elves leaving, and Eregion, as well as Mirkwood, seemed rather less "Elvish" than Rivendell or Lothlorien.  So I think that it wouldn’t seem very safe to any bad guys.  Which I still think there would be.  Even without Orcs or trolls, humans are quite capable of being horrible on our own.
Oin 16/Dec/2006 at 03:01 PM
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Battlehamster: Yeah, the stones were lamenting, but that didn’t save the kingdom from destruction by Sauron. And furthermore, both Mirkwood and Eregion were in existence long before Rivendell was - so if anything, Mirkwood would have been more "elvish" than Rivendell and Eregion would have been way more elvish at the time it was destroyed. The degree to which a location is "elvish" has no effect on its safety.
NineFingered 16/Dec/2006 at 06:57 PM
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There’s quite a few times where orcs avoided mounds where great men lay buried, so it occurs to me that even orcs an feel when a place is sort of "hallowed" and avoid it if they can, just like we would like to avoid Shelob’s lair or Minas Morgul. They probable label Rivendell, Lorien, and other places as evil places, not to go unless in dire need.
Isilmírë 16/Dec/2006 at 09:27 PM
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I would have to agree with NineFingered. It would be like little kids going into a haunted house, with the exception of dares and acts of bravery. Kids would be terrified to aproach the house. And for some odd reason I want to say that orcs are superstitious? Which I am not sure is true. But if that were the case I doubt any remaining orcs would go there. I believe that there would still be an elvish ’feel’ to Rivendell, Lorien, or Mirkwood, and with there being no Sauron to push the orcs to invading such places I don’t think orcs would bother.
Battlehamster 16/Dec/2006 at 09:36 PM
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I realize the age difference between the various abodes of the Elves, but that’s not precisely what I mean.  Just when reading TH and LotR, it always seemed to me like the presence of the Elves had affected Lothlorien much more than Mirkwood.  Especially if Galadriel’s whole song of "I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold and leaves of gold there grew" and she actually had a part in making Lothlorien Lothlorien.

And I realize I shouldn’t find the different possible text colors so endlessly amusing...

Kaulargorn 17/Dec/2006 at 06:24 AM
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Yeah,that sounds correct as Galadriel,’lady of light’, was a powerful person and the culture of her people was affected by her and so the elves of Lothlorien had a greater love for arts and in general a different culture from the ones in Mirkwood.
NineFingered 17/Dec/2006 at 09:14 AM
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Battlehamster, would the difference be that in Lorien and Rivendell dwelt High Elves, some elves who had seen the Light of the 2 Tress, while in Mirkwood there were none? And Eregion probably felt less "elvish" because it had been invaded by Sauron’s forces and destroyed, unlike Lorien, Rivendell or the Grey Havens, don’t you think? And Lothlorien had been inhabited by elves before, but mostly Sindar, under the rule of Amroth I think. So you’re right, Galadriel’s presence did a lot to make Lothlorien Lothlorien.
Oin 17/Dec/2006 at 10:06 AM
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NineFingered: The problem with that is that both Lorien and Rivendell were attacked numerous times: Rivendell was besieged during the War of Sauron and the Elves and after the destruction of Arnor, Lorien was attacked 3 times during the War of the Ring alone, and the Elves who chased the Fellowship certainly weren’t afraid of it either.

The reason why Galadriel made Lorien Lorien was because she had the Elven Ring Nenya on her finger, which preserved the land and made time seem slower than it actually was. It has nothing to do with "elvishness" per se - just the presence of an elven ring preserving the land.

Battlehamster 17/Dec/2006 at 04:20 PM
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So then the question is whether the effects of Nenya and Vilya would linger in Rivendell and Lothlorien after the One Ring was destroyed and Elrond and Galadriel left.  In my mind, that her gift to Sam worked so well even after the destruction of the Ring implies that some of the effects weren’t completely tied to the rings.

 

 

NineFingered 17/Dec/2006 at 04:30 PM
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Battlehamster:

Oin: But Rivendell and Lorien were never totally destroyed, the elves killed and the whole place abandoned, like Hollin.

Oin 17/Dec/2006 at 05:12 PM
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NineFingered: That’s not the point. You stated:

so it occurs to me that even orcs an feel when a place is sort of "hallowed" and avoid it if they can, just like we would like to avoid Shelob’s lair or Minas Morgul. They probable label Rivendell, Lorien, and other places as evil places, not to go unless in dire need.

But the problem with this is is that orcs did attack Lorien and Rivendell, and they did destroy other elvish settlements as well. If the orcs were afraid of these "hallowed" places, they wouldn’t dare to attack them, yet they did - both the ones that they destroyed and the ones they were unable to overcome.

Battlehamster: It wasn’t the presence of the Elves that made Lorien what it was though - it was the effect of the Elven Ring. The effects of the Rings would not last once the One Ring was destroyed - the Rings had lost all their power. I don’t doubt that the land would "remember" the Elves once living there (as in Hollin), but the effects of the Rings themselves could not last. As for Galadriel’s gift, I’d have to say that had more than a little help from the higher ups in the world, although I’m sure it was at least partially "elf-magic". So in that sense you may be right.

Qtpie 17/Dec/2006 at 05:21 PM
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’Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others. and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last.’ The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

The Elven Rings of Power were tied with the One Ring, so that as long as the One lasts so the Three lasts. That’s why after the One was destroyed, the Three Ring’s powers were ended.

NineFingered 17/Dec/2006 at 07:44 PM
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Oin, I just think that orcs would choose Rivendell or Lorien as the last place to enter and dwell in. Considering that they avoided even monuments built by Men (like burial mounds of Ondoher and sons, I think), and even avoid Fangorn if they can. So why is it unreasonable that they would willingly enter places where powerful elves once dwelt? They are probably driven on by fear of Sauron and their hate for anything beatiful to attack. But to attack a place does not necessarily mean you do not fear it.  
Oin 17/Dec/2006 at 08:44 PM
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NineFingered: The orcs probably would have dwelt in Lorien or Rivendell, if only to desecrate it and ruin it as much as possible. After all, the orcs hated the Numenoreans and perhaps feared them as well, but when they captured Minas Ithil they took it and corrupted it rather than destroying it. They also desecrated the statue of the king at the crossroads, and they defiled the Nimrodel by stepping in it. Moreover, the Orcs following the Fellowship willingly entered Moria, as they were bent on revenge for the Fellowship who had slain so many of them (further evidence that they were after revenge can be seen in the dialogue of the northern orcs in TTT: The Uruk-hai). So I believe that they would have attacked and defiled such places, if only out of hate and spite - but they still would have, had they been victorious.
Battlehamster 18/Dec/2006 at 08:22 AM
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Well, in the case of Nimrodel, they didn’t go in it just to defile it, but simply because they had to cross it to continue on. Same with going through Lothlorien. Maybe they were just more afraid of Sauron than Galadriel. And, yes, I realize that they weren’t directly under Sauron’s control, and they were mostly out for revenge, but I imagine they would continue to serve him to some extent.
Oin 19/Dec/2006 at 08:57 PM
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Battlehamster: Yes, the Orcs did do it by necessity, but they certainly weren’t going to avoid it. In the early chapters of TTT, the three pursuers of the Uruk-hai note that the Orcs they are following have gone out of their way to kill living things. Why not desecrate and destroy as much of Lorien as possible? I’m sure the orcs would have reveled in it - they hated all things good and they had been bred to destroy them. The orcs pursuing the Fellowship into Moria were not driven by Sauron, and it is unlikely that they even knew that she had a Great Ring or understood its power (Sauron himself knew neither for sure) - all they would have known at best is that lots of elves dwelt there - and Middle-Earth’s history has shown that orcs are not afraid of elves.
Wilibald Bumble 01/Jan/2007 at 12:10 PM
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The Elves faded into the West and as the Power of the Two rings which Elrond and Galadriel made use by to protect and flourish their great realms of Lothlorien and Imladris, I would say that after the power of the Rings was over and their masters had faded those places pretty much faded too as the great Mallorns in Lothlorien also dwindled as their Elven Masters and the Ring had no longer the power to protect them.