dwarf elf chidren

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allendeonour 01/Dec/2006 at 09:29 AM
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has there ever been a dwarf elf child born i know they hate each other races wise but would there ever have been an exception maybe dureing the friendship of menegroth and nogrod can someone help me i’m puzzeled
Wood Walker 01/Dec/2006 at 09:43 AM
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I would say that no there was no such child. I will confess I haven’t read everything Tolkien wrote, I am working on it though. Now there where elf-men childern, such as in the case of Elrond and his brother. So there maybe a instance, but from ny understanding I would say no. During the times that the elves and dwarves "put up with each other" and where friendly towards one another, I don’t think they were that friendly.
Tuna 01/Dec/2006 at 10:30 AM
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I’m not thinking that there are. In addition to the point of Wood Walker that I have never seen Tolkien mention any (and I have fully read over half of all the texts of Tolkien and am finishing HOME as we speak), I think it important to note that he only addressed the marriage and children of the elf-man variety (i.e.- in Letters), leading me to believe that there were no such. Granted, not positive fact, but arguments from silence can, in the least bit, stand to reason.
Wood Walker 01/Dec/2006 at 11:06 AM
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You can’t prove or diprove it. Though the overall relationship between elves and dwarves suggestes that no child was ever half elf, half dwarf. You can also ask yourself questions like why would an elf and drawf hitch up together? The whole idea just doesn’t add up.
Boromir88 01/Dec/2006 at 11:17 AM
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I doubt there was any such child.  In Middle-earth it seemed an odd thing to intermingle with other races.  There are some rare and ’special’ occurances where Elves and Men fell in love, and also the occurance of the Maiar (Melian) marrying Thingol (Elf)...but for the most part these seem to be special circumstances and not a common thing.

Also, we have to take into consideration would an Elf and a Dwarf ever be attracted to eachother.  From reading through Appendix A: Durin’s Folk, I got the idea that:

1) Very few dwarves ever married (less than one-third of their population), and that dwarf women seem only attracted to dwarf men:
’It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings.  For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights.  The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third.  For not all the women take husbands; some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other.  As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts.’

2) The Dwarf women for the most part kept to themselve and in their home:
’It was said by Gimil that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people.  They seldom walk abroad except at great need.’
If they seldom go out anywhere, that means they seldom see any other race (particularly Elves who have a strained relationship with the dwarves) except their own.

3) I doubt an Elf would be attracted to a dwarf-women (or the other way around), who indeed are similar in appearance to dwarf-men:
They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.  This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women and that Dwarves ’grow out of stone.’

So, if Dwarf women ever did go out (which was seldom) it’s highly likely an elf would believe they were all dwarf-men.  And the race of Men concocted up some preposterous story that there were no dwarf-women at all.  Taking all this into account (along with the fact that there is no story where a dwarf and elf had a child), I would say there was no such circumstance...and such a circumstance to happen would be highly unlikely.

Annuicalar 01/Dec/2006 at 12:29 PM
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But what about a male dwarf and a she-elf?

Since it’s not mentioned as far as I can remember, we can only guess. Now, I think it’s possible it had happen. There are hudreds of dwarves and hundreds of elves, we cannot think we know every storys of Middel-earth.

What I don’t think is that it was common. But why not? It may had happen once, somewhere. Tolkien created a world so big and complex that I think he didn’t know everting about it himself.

Boromir88 01/Dec/2006 at 01:17 PM
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But what about a male dwarf and a she-elf?~annuicalar

I think that’s even just as (or perhaps less) likely than a dwarf woman marrying a male Elf.  The only isntance we have where a dwarf is taken back and amazed by an elf is Gimli’s reaction to Galadriel.  But, there is nothing sexual/marriage attraction between the two, it’s more of an admiration for eachother.  It’s what the french would say the noble amour cortois...or ’courtly love.’

I think Woodwalker makes a valid point in that would dwarves and elves really be attracted to eachother, and would that feeling be mutual?  Dwarf Men, even amongst their own kind are more interested with their craftsanship and riches than with taking a dwarf woman as a wife.

Just by having ’no story’ where an elf and dwarf have a child isn’t ’proof’ to say that there was one and there quite possibly is one.  That’s like me saying ’Well it never says Gandalf’s favorite toy was a slinky, therefor it’s quite possible that it is!’  If we take what we know about dwarves and the elves, I think we can see the situation where they would have a baby together is extremely unlikely.  I leave room for a little probability, since it’s never said definitively, but this chance of this would have to be quite minute, for all the reasons that have been said.

Battlehamster 01/Dec/2006 at 05:12 PM
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Would it even be possible for them to be genetically compatible enough for them to have kids.  I mean, Humans and Elves were both created by Iluvatar, so they would be fairly alike.  But given that Dwarves were created by Aule, I would assume that they wouldn’t be "related" enough for that to work.  Or so I’d interpret it.

Take this slinky, master, for your burdens will be heavy, and mayhap the slinky of fire can heat hearts in a world that grows chill...

(I know, that’s not how it goes)

Arvellas 02/Dec/2006 at 04:03 PM
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Annuicalar-Welcome to the Plaza and to the Lore Fora!

Battlehamster-Yes, I think you have a point.  I don’t know for sure whether the fact that Elves and Dwarves were created by different beings would impact their ability to mate with one another, but it is certainly a possibility.  Elves and Men can mate, but they are more closely related, being the children of Eru.  There is always the possibility, too, that it would be like crossing a horse and donkey, and the offspring would be infertile, so no one could boast having a half-elf half-dwarf ancestor.

Norin Deathfoot 03/Dec/2006 at 09:23 AM
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There are many things that get in the way of having children, and a species barrier is only one of them! I don’t think it’s possible, even if a dwarf and an elf fell in love and got married. Think of the two like cats and dogs. they fihgt mostly, but you get cases where the respect each other and like each other (think Gimli and Galadriel). Yet it never goes so far as to fall in love, and even if, there would be no children as that mix doesn’t work out. The fetus (f it came to that) would self-abort due to the conflicting genetic information.

Kaulargorn 15/Dec/2006 at 01:18 PM
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Moreover, I think that a dwarf as not created by Eru, I think it was Ulmo the one who created them from stone, could not reproduce with the Eru’s children, the elves and humen, however I have not read such a thing, it is my guess. But as mentioned above it is written that dwarf women were attracted only to dwarves
Daywalker 15/Dec/2006 at 01:22 PM
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Aule not Ulmo..Mahal named among Dwarves.

As to actual issue of this thread..i wont make any comments. *g*

Marak RedIron 15/Dec/2006 at 01:43 PM
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This is not a bad subject, and if I may make one comment...I will then leave you to your discussions. Based upon what I have read I do not think that neither the Dwarven or Elven race would have even tried to mingle. The pride and respect for their own kind would have prevented a union of any kind between the two.
elvenboy20 15/Dec/2006 at 02:09 PM
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so your talking about mixing races with elves and dwarves that would be cool a short person with a beard and pointy ears and has an imortal life do they have them obviously he didnt mention it in the books or the movies abnd the elves and dwarves dislike each other as it looked like in the first movie at the council meeting so i dont think they would fall in love but hey who knows they could and make a new race of people 
Vugar 15/Dec/2006 at 06:46 PM
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As has been suggested by others, I would think the lack of biological similarity between the Dwarves and Elves would be a hindrance of some sort to any interbreeding.  Tolkien did state more than once that Elves and Men were represented as similar enough to produce fertile progeny.

"I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event" (Letter #153 (draft), Letters of Tolkien)

Arien Ellariel 17/Dec/2006 at 07:01 PM
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Uggh! Could you imagine how ugly that poor kid would be???
Arvellas 19/Dec/2006 at 07:06 PM
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elvenboy20-Could you please use punctuation to separate your sentences?  Not doing so makes you rather hard to understand, as though you are speaking in a rush.  Also, if by chance an Elf and a Dwarf could mate and produce fertile offspring, the chances that that offspring would be immortal are pretty low.  Looking at Elf-Man crosses, we see that the offspring of a mortal and immortal is by default mortal.  The case of the Peredhil, where Elrond and his brother Elros, and later Elrond’s children, were given a choice as to whether to become mortal or immortal was a special exception.
Sil 27/Dec/2006 at 02:43 PM
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It is Eol who is listed as having "more liking for the Dwarves than any of the Elvenfolk of old", of Maeglin, The Sil - (this quote may not be entirely perfect, but it goes like that.) And although it doesn’t mention the Elves who come about later on, it is unlikely many of them would like Dwarves much more, considering all the hereditary hatred after the Nauglamir business, except for the Hollin Elves and Legolas and Gimli,  - and that was an unusual situation, where they were necessarily in each others’ company and faced many dangers together. And Eol certainly does not show romantic interest in Dwarves, ending up married to Aredhel, despite the fact that he normally spent a lot of time with Dwarves and very little time with Elves. He still marries an Elf - in fact the first female Elf he’s apparently seen in ages. So, if even the Elf who likes Dwarves much better than most Elves marries an Elf, I can’t see the situation likely to occur with other Elves.
Lanthir Lamath 27/Dec/2006 at 03:07 PM
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But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: ’Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein; but in no other way will I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so shall it be. But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth; and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.’_ The Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna, all emphasis mine

A useless quote, perhaps, but one through which I would wish to point out that (a) dwarves were not what the elves would perceive as being "pretty", or beautiful in any way: in their making they fit an abstract idea of their creator, and were not so similar to elves and men. This more or less reduces the possibility of two falling in love, because it seems to me that this type of Love, that transcends boundaries of kind and custom, can only be "love at first sight", at least, in Tolkien’s works.
And (b), I think that "often strife shall arise" more or less nills the possibility of falling in love at all, even in the remote exception of growing into love.

Aslar Haechil 31/Dec/2006 at 05:09 PM
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Even if it were a possibility, I doubt anyone from either side would want to create a short, hairy elf-like creature with pointy ears, and sharp features. I can only imagine the product as being somewhat discusting. An atrocity and discrace in the eyes of Eru. Knowing what we do about chromosomes today, they would also likely be sterile creatures.
Reikon Suchi-ru 31/Dec/2006 at 05:25 PM
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Speculation is always fun, but in the case of "What if" scenarios related to intermixing of races, I like to stand firm. We, as humans, seem to perceive intermixing as something common, since racial differences are largely overlooked in today’s world (at least here in America it is, mostly). In the ENTIRE recorded history of Middle-earth, there are only 4 instances of Human-Elf unions (Beren / Luthien, Tuor / Idril, Aragorn / Arwen, Imrazôr / Mithrellas). The Awakening of Men occured in I 1, and the last recorded event by Tolkien occurred in IV 172, when the Red Book of Westmarch is completed by Findegil. That’s a span of 7217 years. Therefore, an Elf-Human union occurred, on average, once every 1,804 years. Not very often, now is it? Since the differences, both physically and culturally, between Elves and Dwarves are so divergent (even moreso than Elves and Men), I think it is safe to say that there never was, nor will there ever be, a Dwarf-Elf Union.
Oin 01/Jan/2007 at 12:57 AM
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Guys, Achiaus already answered the question. It is biologically impossible for Elves and Dwarves to bear offspring: Elves and Men are biologically identical, Dwarves are, as he put it in the appendices, "a race apart". I’m just curious, but who says that their reproductive organs are the same as Humans’ and Elves’? Interesting thought to consider. To put it frankly: there never was half-dwarf half-elf being because it was impossible for Elves and Dwarves to have offspring. Its as simple as that.