The End Of Days

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Mithrandír 06/Dec/2006 at 04:38 AM
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while reading the Similirion yesterday, i came across a passage mentioning The End Of Days. and again, while i was reading the Similirion, it sometimes mentions the End, or such things. As i am typing from school, i cannot give you the exact passages of the mention of the End Of Days, and the End.

does anyone have any idea of what this is, or what it means by the End? The Dagor Dagorath?

Phil_d_one 06/Dec/2006 at 04:48 AM
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Its meaning really depends on its context. Literally it should refer to the end of time i.e. the end of Arda itself. But as you say, it is also used with reference to the Dagor Dagorath (we are told of ’the last battle that shall be at the end of days’ or something along those lines), which doesn’t fit exactly since the destruction of Arda Marred in the Dagor Dagorath is followed immediately by the creation of Arda Remade. And when Feanor uses it in his Oath, he does so almost hyperbolically -- that all are prohibited from claiming the jewels of the Noldor as their own, regardless of their race and the time period they occupy.

Any good?
GiorgosTurambar 06/Dec/2006 at 04:53 AM
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When the time comes, Morgoth shall overcome the walls of Night, and summon all his servants to fight the last battle, the Dagor Dagorath against all the free peoples of Middle Earth on the plains of Valinor.
There, Earendil will come from the sky, and so will Turin Turambar.
Tulkas will wrestle with Melkor, but it will be Turin who will deal the final blow, slaying Melkor and thus avenging the children of Hurin.
Qtpie 06/Dec/2006 at 09:01 PM
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Nan-Tathren: If you’re interested in the Dagor Dagorath, there is actually a great page dedicated to it in the Fanatics Library here. Here’s the link to it: http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/dagordagorath.asp. Hope it answers all your questions .
Endril 06/Dec/2006 at 10:21 PM
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A question: Does someone know what will exactly happen in Dagor Dagorath like it was knew about Ragnarock? In the Ragnarock it was knew all that will happen exactly, who will kill who, who will foght who etc. Wsa the Dagor Dagorath simmilar to that, meening that people knew what will happen at the time of it and after?
Mithrandír 07/Dec/2006 at 04:40 AM
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A question: Does someone know what will exactly happen in Dagor Dagorath like it was knew about Ragnarock?

i think so, but i am not intirely sure about the Ragnarock.

i have had a very very extensive thread on the subject of the Dagor-Dagorath, but i cannot find it, as i think that it was deleted.

thanks for your help guys.

halfir 07/Dec/2006 at 05:05 PM
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Nan-Tathren: Yout thread is here- in Archive V:

http://www.lotrplaza.com/archive5/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=21&TopicID=207227&PagePostPosition=1X(

As to the ’end of days’ Tolkien’s thinking on this matter was never finalized, and we would all do well to observe the cautionary remark of CT in BOLT 4 The Shaping of ME The Earliest Silmarillion:

’Into this final resolution of evil in the world, it would be unprofitable ,I think, too enquire too close;ly.’

Mithrandír 08/Dec/2006 at 04:38 AM
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oh, thankyou, Halfir! i see that it has been transfered into an archive. I have heard of this, but i do not fully not understand the meaning.( although i understand what an archive is)

’Into this final resolution of evil in the world, it would be unprofitable ,I think, too enquire too close;ly.’

but why did Tolkien lean away from this subject?

halfir 08/Dec/2006 at 05:10 PM
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Nan_Thathren: Sorry, I should perhaps have been less elliptical. The quote I gave ’warning us off’ as it were, is from CT as editor, not from Tolkien himself.

CT rightly feels that his father’s writings on this subject are less than complete and thus probably do not adequately reflect the fulness of his father’s thinking on the subject, which, sadly for us, Tolkien did not find time to develop and complete in writing.

Mirkwoodworker 08/Dec/2006 at 11:54 PM
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The following is from Letters, #131, p. 149:

"This legendarium ends with a vision of the end of the world, its breaking and remaking, and the recovery of the Silmarilli and the ’light before the Sun’--after a final battle which owes, I suppose, more to the Norse vision of Ragnarok than to anything else, though it is not much like it."

With his remark about Ragnarok being different from Dagor Dagorath, Tolkien might have meant that the Norse Gods lose, whereas the good side wins in his End of Days.
Skauril 09/Dec/2006 at 02:23 PM
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I find a troubling contradiction in the very existence of something in ME history as far into the future as this ’Dagor Dagorath’. According to Tolkien, we’re now living in the sixth age (I think, or was it the late Fifth?) of Middle-earth, and it’s safe to assume we’ll be well into the Seventh, Eighth, or god knows what age, before this final day of reckoning is at hand. However, since there are obviously no more elves, dwarves, hobbits, Numenoreans, orcs, dragons, balrogs, or supernatural deities in the Middle-earth of our age (and I doubt they’ll be making a sudden appearance in the future, for that matter), how is it that the "old gang" will suddenly get back together on our world for a final showdown? Will Sauron, Melkor and their cronies suddenly make an appearance somewhere on the plains of  Rhu.. errr.. Russia, and will the righteous forces of the Valar (including Ar-Pharazon’s army, which has been lying under a pile of rubble in a state of suspended animation in a cave near Tol Eressae ever since the downfall of Numenor) congregate on the fields of Valinor (which would be.. where exactly in that time in our world.. somewhere in an alternate dimension?)?

How does one make sense of this dilemma.. finding a place for a battle featuring all the important (and less important ) characters of Middle-earth’s history on OUR soil, in this modern world of ours - or even on this world of ours in the future, assuming the battle lies far ahead in time? I think Tolkien really made a mistake when he said that Middle-earth is our earth in an earlier time in history, even if he intended it to represent a mythological take on history. It simply creates too many discrepancies and plotholes, and really eats away at the believability of the whole mythos.

I mean.. how can anyone reconcile these facts together to form a coherent vision of what this Dagor Dagorath will entail? I certainly am incapable of doing so. Unless the current governments of earth somehow died out, the continents shifted and landmasses changed dramatically to provide a suitable setting for the battle (Middle-earth at the time of the War of the Ring all over again), hobbits started breeding somewhere in the countryside of England (before it merged into the Eurasian continent again to form the Shire), elves entered our world from their alternate dimension where Valinor lies, dwarves came crawling out from holes in the mountains etc etc. Oh yeah, and technology would have to regress back to a medieval setting. Unless we want to assume Dagor Dagorath will be fought with bullets and grenades (seriously, what is even the most powerful dragon ever to have lived on ME going to do against a whole squadron of fighter jets armed with heat seeking missiles.. never mind whatever futuristic weapons we’ll have by that time?)?

At times like these I wish Tolkien would have just made Middle-earth a seperate entity instead of our planet in the distant past.

Mirkwoodworker 09/Dec/2006 at 05:41 PM
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Skauril: Although Tolkien might have written that Middle-earth is our Earth in the distant past, I doubt that he meant that seriously. He may have tacked on a Final Battle just because many mythological systems have something like it. I dunno.
Kaulargorn 15/Dec/2006 at 12:16 PM
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That final battle reminds me a lot of the Ragnarock, a scandinavian legend of the battle at the end of the days. Another similarity in Tolkien’s mythology to the Scandinavian legends such as rings of power and dragons  or the north origin of the Rohirrim as the origin of the Vikings conquerors
halfir 16/Dec/2006 at 12:05 AM
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That final battle reminds me a lot of the Ragnarock

See Mirkwoodworker’s post three above yours quoting Letter # 131

a final battle which owes, I suppose, more to the Norse vision of Ragnarok than to anything else, though it is not much like it." {my bold and underline)

Battlehamster 16/Dec/2006 at 09:53 AM
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Skauril- It would make sense if. because the balrogs, dragons... are so different from our world, modern stuff wouldn’t work against them.  Sort of like in Garth Nix’s Sabriel books.  Or it could be after some disaster takes out most of our technology, like a nuclear war, global warming, or just kills us all off. 

I have a feeling someone is going to see this post and take me off to a nice room with padded walls where I can learn that LotR didn’t really happen. 

NineFingered 16/Dec/2006 at 10:14 AM
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We only know a few clues about the Dagor Bragollach, but something always caught by imagination. How does Turin kill Morgoth, who is a Valar after all? Are Valar mortal?

Skauril, you’re reasoning was good, but I can’t agree with you. Tolkien created a mythology, not a history of the world. He is a master of literature, which may apply to our history but is not the same as it. And many mytholgies have a chapter on the end of time, where gods and monsters will fight and the world will be destroyed, bla bla.... so Tolkien’s mytholgy is just like them, plus he gives us only a few clues of how this End will be for ME. Plus, I don’t think he really believed that at the End of our world balrogs, hobbits, elves and dwarves will just appear somehow, it doesn’t make sense as you explained. "I think Tolkien really made a mistake when he said that Middle-earth is our earth in an earlier time in history, even if he intended it to represent a mythological take on history." Could you provide any quote where Tolkien specifically says that we live in the 5th Age or something? I’m confused....

I get mixed up when I think of 2 seemingly contradictory concepts. Tolkien speaks of Fairy Tales as a creation of a Secondary World. But he also says that he wanted to create a mytholgy for Britain. Now, Britain is part of the Primary World. Is LOTR a fairy tale or a mythology? I don’t get it.

Skauril 17/Dec/2006 at 02:35 AM
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Quote: Originally posted by Battlehamster on Saturday, December 16, 2006

I have a feeling someone is going to see this post and take me off to a nice room with padded walls where I can learn that LotR didn’t really happen. 


Therein lies the problem. Tolkien’s Middle-earth was (and still is) such an elaborate conception with a story so painstakingly crafted that it almost feels real and tangible. It is far too detailed and rich in a history of its own to be a mythos, IMO. It just doesn’t work, seeing as all the other mythologies of the world are rather simplistic in comparison; naive, even, and certainly not ’believable’ in the strictest sense of the word. Tolkien went far beyond any story or mythology ever conceived in the minds of men.. he created a world so real and immersive that it instantly creates a problem when you try and fit it together with our own world. It’s bad enough to try and imagine Middle-earth somehow slowly morphing into our own world, with all the elements that made it a fantasy world dying out.. and then all of a sudden jump right back into some sort of final showdown where all the deities and creatures of Middle-earth will reappear.. it just doesn’t feel right.

So yeah, Ninefingered, you’re right about there being a contradiction between the two concepts. I think Tolkien himself was (perhaps intentionally) vague on where the line between ’fairy tale’ world and ’real’ world runs. This creates a lot of confusion for me at least. I just wish he would have abandoned the concept of trying to create a mythos and fit it into our own world, and instead just stuck with creating a different world altogether (perhaps our own world in an alternative dimension?). If you ask me, it doesn’t do Tolkien’s creation any justice to try and cram it into this depressing, bleak rock of ours that is overpopulated by this race of vicious, self destructive primates we call humans. When I "go" to Middle-earth, I go there to escape from reality (what makes it so easy to escape to is the fact that it feels like a seperate reality of its own, instead of just another fairy tale).

Mithrandír 17/Dec/2006 at 05:14 AM
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Therein lies the problem. Tolkien’s Middle-earth was (and still is) such an elaborate conception with a story so painstakingly crafted that it almost feels real and tangible.

i agree wholly and purely with this remark that you made, Skauril. I think like this about Lord Of The Rings many atime. How long did Tolkien labour until he finnaly finsihed when he died( even then Christopher Tolkien kept publishing his notes) the books that were written can actually be classified as part of my ( and lots of other peoples) life.

Vugar 17/Dec/2006 at 10:50 AM
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On the matter of Middle-earth being our own world, I believe Tolkien stated it in a way that the events we read about took place in an imaginary time of a real place i.e. the earth.  And unless I am mistaken, it is that imaginative quality that reappears time after time.  (The bolding is my own in all of the following).

"’Middle-earth’, by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in .... And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this ’history’ is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet." (Letter #165, Letters of Tolkien)

"I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world...The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary. The essentials of that abiding place are all there (at any rate for inhabitants of N.W. Europe), so naturally it feels familiar, even if a little glorified by the enchantment of distance in time." (Letter #183, Letters of Tolkien)

I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in ’space’. However curious, they are alien, and not lovable with the love of blood-kin. Middle-earth is...not my own invention. It is a modernization or alteration...of an old word for the inhabited world of Men, the oikoumene: middle because thought of vaguely as set amidst the encircling Seas and (in the northern-imagination) between ice of the North and the fire of the South. O. English middan-geard , mediaeval E. midden-erd, middle-erd . Many reviewers seem to assume that Middle-earth is another planet!" (Letter #211, Letters of Tolkien)

And perhaps the most important point is that the peoples of Middle-earth are no different morally from ourselves.

"’...I have not made any of the peoples on the ’right’ side, Hobbits, Rohirrim, Men of Dale or of Gondor, any better than men have been or are, or can be. Mine is not an ’imaginary’ world, but an imaginary historical moment on ’Middle-earth’ -- which is our habitation.’" (Letter #183, Letters of Tolkien)

Battlehamster 17/Dec/2006 at 12:52 PM
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I remember a part in the Letters where Tolkien does say that we’d be in the sixth or seventh age, I think.  I can’t find it, though. 

Achiaus- I love that last quote.  I always find it so irritating when people say that he made all the Rohirrim and men of Gondor good and all the Haradrim bad and so on, so it’s totally morally simplistic.  Stupid, stupid people.

Vugar 17/Dec/2006 at 03:41 PM
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Battlehamster, The particular quote you are looking for is a footnote to Letter #211.

"I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years : that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh."

And I heartily agree about the importance of that last quote.  It reminds us that like the Men of that age, albeit ’imaginary’, the Men of today can and do aspire to great deeds.  There are failings, and this is easily seen, but one need not lose hope.

Mithrandír 19/Dec/2006 at 10:20 AM
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"I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years : that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh."

oh, Achaius, i had had one of a thread on the subject of the fifth and sixth age, but evidently here is the answer. thankyou!
Battlehamster 19/Dec/2006 at 03:53 PM
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An interesting part of that is where he says that he thinks the ages have become shorter.  What do you think,  is that a reference to the fact that as time goes on everything seems to be changing faster?  I mean culture and technology and everything.