Dagor Dagorath-PROPHECY

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Wilibald Bumble 12/Dec/2006 at 05:00 PM
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This is a recent topic I came upon recently. It is the most intriguing and the most interesting LOTR topic so far. Dagor Dagorath or the Final Battle is a prophecy Tolkien declared at the end of the Quenta Silmarillion when Melkor would escape from the Door of Night and come back to Arda and bring with him Sauron and the rest of the evil Balrogs too. There would be a uniting of the lords of Varda, Men and Elves and Dwarves and there would be a final Battle . Melkor will destroy the sun and the moon and along with help from the Valar many brave heroes such as Turin, Hurin and other slain heroes will return from the Halls of Yavanna and battle again Finally, Tulkas will wrestle with Melkor and then Hurin would drive his sword in Melkor’s heart forever killing his spriit. Then there would be a second music of the Ainur and the Ea or the universe will again reawaken and go through all the Ages again

External Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Battle

THIS TOPIC IS SO INTERESTING AND I WONDER IF IT IT IS HINTED ANYWHERE IN OTHER TOLKIEN SAGAS. CHRISTOPHER TOLKIEN ACCIDENTLY EDITED THIS PROPHECY BUT IT WAS THERE AT THE END OF THE SILMARALLION!!

Romendacil III 12/Dec/2006 at 08:15 PM
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First of all, no where in the Tolkien’s written works found in the History of Middle-Earth series mentions that Morgoth will bring Sauron with him, or any of the Balrogs for that matter. You’ve got that all wrong. Sauron is finished after the ring is destroyed, there is no coming back for him, the greater part of his being was put into that ring and it was utterly destroyed. Second of all there are no Balrogs out there with Morgoth in the Void, he is thrown out of Arda by the Valar all by himself and the Balrogs were either destroyed or are still hidden deep under the Earth. As for mortal men coming back to fight for the Valar in the last battle Turin is the only one mentioned, not his father Hurin. and I believe you mean the Lords of the Valar, not Varda. Varda is the wife of Manwe and She is the one that created the Stars marking the awakening of the elves.
Alcarináro 12/Dec/2006 at 08:39 PM
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Odd... I remember nothing in any accounts of the Dagor Dagorath concerning Balrogs. Probably because, contrary to what whoever wrote that wikipedia article thinks, all the Balrogs are dead.
Christopher Tolkien did very few things in his editing by accident (and those that he did were, in comparison to what you say, very minor, such as the omission of a word or two for various reasons), and this was not one of them.
It should also be noted that Tolkien’s last thoughts on the matter were that the Dagor Dagorath was a human conception of how they believed the World would end, not the truth of it. The Elves theorize, but they do not know what will happen.
Romendacil III 12/Dec/2006 at 08:40 PM
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Holy crap, I just read that article from Wikipedia, whoever wrote that is completely misinformed and is making entirely too many assumptions. Can anybody tell at which point Gandalf ever suggests that the Witchking and the other Nazgul are going to be thrown into the void. I do recall Gandalf’s words to the Witchking at Minas Tirth, but that was more of a threat than actual lore, don’t you think?
Qtpie 12/Dec/2006 at 08:48 PM
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Also I noticed that this is the second time you mention the "Halls of Yavanna", but as far as I know there isn’t a Hall of Yavanna where slain heroes go. There was the Halls of Mandos where all spirits go after their body dies. Men and Elves have different fates after they die but here is what happens to them when they go to the Halls of Mandos.

’...;and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men died indeed, and leave the world;...’ The Silmarillion: Of the Beginning of Days
Dis 12/Dec/2006 at 08:53 PM
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CT was meticulous and careful in his editing and gathering of materials. What didn’t make it into the Silm is found in the History of Middle-Earth series.

Since anybody who can use a computer can contribute to Wikipedia it is not always the most reliable source of information. I would like to know who found this ’missing’ piece.’

Romendacil III 12/Dec/2006 at 09:05 PM
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If anybody can contribute, can we delete what this retard has written?
Dis 12/Dec/2006 at 09:22 PM
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Maybe you could edit in that its truth is dubious at best.

This so called prophecy has everyone and their mother coming back for a big show down. It just sounds so very non-Tolkien. I know he brought Gandalf back but to bring everyone back just doesn’t ring true. Tolkien wasn’t one to sew up every detail. He hinted around a lot of times and left things mysterious.

Nenarye 12/Dec/2006 at 09:53 PM
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Wilibald - Wiki’s aren’t nessisarily true, so it’s best not to post somthing like you did if you’re not sure it’s true, or have somthing to back it up.
KingODuckingham 12/Dec/2006 at 09:56 PM
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Don’t feel too bad, Wilibald, we all make mistakes. But remember that particularly for the lore fora, few sources are acceptable outside the books of Tolkien himself, as people often interpolate and extrapolate far too much.
Mithrandír 13/Dec/2006 at 04:40 AM
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oh, please, dont trouble me with this one... i had a very extensive thread on this. Halfir, Halfir, where are you.....
Romendacil III 13/Dec/2006 at 06:44 AM
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Despite all the far reaching assumptions that this wikipedia article makes one of the biggest things that bothers me about it is the part about Ar-Pharazon and his men fighting for the Valar in the Last Battle. I refuse to believe that these ignorant corrupted men are chosen to fight for the Valar after all they did. Yet that is one of the less far reaching assumptions because of that quote in the Silmarillion which I think is highly misinterpreted.

"Ar-Pharazôn and his mortal warriors who had set foot on Aman were buried by falling hills, imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten until the "Last Battle and Day of Doom". (their bold emphasis) -The Silmarillion, The Akallabeth

Many people take this as Ar-Pharazon and his men staying alive in the Caves of the Forgotten until The End of Days, or somehow being brought back to life at that time. When I say why? Why should this evil men be given such an honor? And why would the Valar even need them?

Wilibald Bumble 13/Dec/2006 at 02:49 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by King Aldamir on Tuesday, December 12, 2006
If anybody can contribute, can we delete what this retard has written?

Alright first of all I got permission to start this thread and the admin seemed really interested in this too. Second of all, I do admit I made some mistakes in my thread opening as I was really excited.

Third of all, instead of completely eliminating this idea(which is fine if it was) we could investigate more and really see what happened.

Fourth of all, I know Wikipedia is not always true but you guys should also state some literaly references to back your claims. I know some people have.

<Ulmo edit: profanity removed and sig-spam as well.  If you go to "Edit Profile" there is a signature box which you can put your signature in.  Please make use of that instead of typing the signature into your posts.  Thanks.>

Hithlum 13/Dec/2006 at 02:59 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by King Aldamir on Tuesday, December 12, 2006
If anybody can contribute, can we delete what this retard has written?
I don’t tend to report fellow Gondorians, but if you keep up being that rude to other people, you leave me no choice..
Dis 13/Dec/2006 at 03:00 PM
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Let me turn this around a bit. What is the literary proof of this passage other than an anonymous Wikipedia writer? As my college professors used to say of any wild claim; "book, chapter and verse." Where is this printed and who is making the claim?

Winter is Coming 13/Dec/2006 at 03:02 PM
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Hithlum - I think he was calling the author of the Wiki article a retard and not a fellow plaza member. Well I hope he was considering I’m defending him. *g*
Wilibald Bumble 13/Dec/2006 at 04:54 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Ealena on Wednesday, December 13, 2006
Hithlum - I think he was calling the author of the Wiki article a retard and not a fellow plaza member. Well I hope he was considering I’m defending him. *g*
I don’t really think he was calling the Wiki writer a retard. His insult was aimed directly at me
Wilibald Bumble 13/Dec/2006 at 04:54 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Dis on Wednesday, December 13, 2006

Let me turn this around a bit. What is the literary proof of this passage other than an anonymous Wikipedia writer? As my college professors used to say of any wild claim; "book, chapter and verse." Where is this printed and who is making the claim?


 LOL very intelligent! yes i do know what you mean! But instead of concentrating on that one Wiki article. let’s take upon the research to ourselves and see if this thing is really true.

Alcarináro 13/Dec/2006 at 05:32 PM
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...

No, it really wasn’t. If you cared to read all of his posts, context clearly dictates that he was talking not about you. Unless you wrote the wikipedia article, in which case he was, and in which I case I would as well.

I already told you it isn’t true. HoME X: Morgoth’s Ring, has a large amount of writings where Tolkien explored philosophy of his world, and part of this involved Incarnate conceptions of how the World would end. The Elves knew it would, for Arda was finite. Some believed that they would simply cease to exist. Others did not like the idea that idea, and thought that Arda would be remade, Unstained and Renewed, and that they would be in it in a state of non-time. It is a lot of complicated issues that, really, you don’t need to know about.
But since you seem to trust wikipedia more than the inhabitants of this lore forum, I decided to explain more than was necessary, as I already did the necessary in my first post in this thread.
Now, back to the issue at hand: ’It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition.
-HoME X: Morgoth’s Ring, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, Note 7
Catiri 13/Dec/2006 at 06:23 PM
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Want one ruler? why not just get two? have a look HERE at  this amazing chance, this is a limited time offer (and all officients are open to bribery for credits). Don’t forget the same offer goes for Supporting Membership aswell

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KingODuckingham 13/Dec/2006 at 07:28 PM
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It is a lot of complicated issues that, really, you don’t need to know about. Maybe he would rather trust wikipedia articles rather than people on this forum because wikipedia offers information, not curt dismissal. While that information may be wrong, how is he to know unless someone shows him otherwise, rather than just saying: "You’re wrong."?
Romendacil III 13/Dec/2006 at 07:44 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Wilibald Bumble on Wednesday, December 13, 2006
Quote: Originally posted by Ealena on Wednesday, December 13, 2006
Hithlum - I think he was calling the author of the Wiki article a retard and not a fellow plaza member. Well I hope he was considering I’m defending him. *g*
I don’t really think he was calling the Wiki writer a retard. His insult was aimed directly at me
No they were right, I wasn’t calling you a retard, I was calling the person who wrote that wikipedia article a retard. They had no right to go and post false information like that. I use to like the wikipedia but if that’s the level of intelligence they allow to post on that site than my faith is seriously shaken.
Alcarináro 13/Dec/2006 at 09:23 PM
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KingODuckingham, that’s the type of reasoning that validates the ’personal histories’ of the Nazgul. Anyone can make something up and go on about it for lengths. The fact of the matter is, when someone or something (like the wikipedia article in this case) provides a long narrative to some effect, people in general tend to believe it more than a simple statement to the adverse affect. But generally, one cannot quote about an idea that Tolkien did not write about. Does this mean that if I make something up carefully, you can never truly deny it? Of course not. It simply means that you aren’t going to match the verbosity of the fabrication with your rejection. This is what I did in my first post. Apparently, this was not enough. So in my second, I provided information that speaks of the Elven ideas of future and end of the World, which, as you would have noted had you noted taken my words out of context, was not really necessary to reject the idea. I added it because it gave more length to my claim, which translates into a higher acceptance rate. But being the honest sort, I pointed out that tactic. Because, having proven it with the quote and my reasoning, my claim was valid in itself, and the additional information was my rhetoric. Why do I need rhetoric? To be blunt, I need rhetoric because people in general are rather disinclined to believe the truth.
Hithlum 14/Dec/2006 at 04:07 AM
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Then I apologise, King Aldamir. And of course, you are right about the article’s terrible content

<Ulmo edit: There is no need to quote such vast quantities, especially if you are replying to the directly previous post of that member.>

Wilibald Bumble 14/Dec/2006 at 04:44 AM
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Ok, first to get off the issues. This is a forum. And I obviously trust all your opinions rather than one OPINION on that wikipedia article. I thought it was interesting and so I posted it so it could be discussed among us. Ok, Im sorry because I thought that guy was calling me a retard. He himself has said it was not so. So sorry about the misunderstanding. But seriously guys instead of talking directly to me why don’t we just discuss it among OURSELVES, i mean come on all i did was paste that idea on this forum because thats what forums are for. I didnt write that Article. So, please stop blaming me for getting it all wrong, because I just posted it because it seemed pretty exciting at first.
Romendacil III 14/Dec/2006 at 05:35 AM
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Well I am trying to get off the subject of this person’s terrible inaccuracies and move along with the actual subject of this topic. If you noticed my previous post to the last one I did.

"Despite all the far reaching assumptions that this wikipedia article makes one of the biggest things that bothers me about it is the part about Ar-Pharazon and his men fighting for the Valar in the Last Battle. I refuse to believe that these ignorant corrupted men are chosen to fight for the Valar after all they did. Yet that is one of the less far reaching assumptions because of that quote in the Silmarillion which I think is highly misinterpreted.

"Ar-Pharazôn and his mortal warriors who had set foot on Aman were buried by falling hills, imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten until the "Last Battle and Day of Doom". (their bold emphasis) -The Silmarillion, The Akallabeth

Many people take this as Ar-Pharazon and his men staying alive in the Caves of the Forgotten until The End of Days, or somehow being brought back to life at that time. When I say why? Why should this evil men be given such an honor? And why would the Valar even need them?"

Magradhaid 14/Dec/2006 at 09:49 AM
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>Why should this evil men be given such an honor?

Well, Tolkien mentioned (once and nowhere else, c. 1960s) that Elendil was the author of the Akallabêth [UT 2 III], so he might have had some pro-Númenórean bias, despite his lack of love for Ar-Pharazôn and his misguided policies which had been corrupted by Sauron. Either this passage was hopeful thinking on Elendil’s part, or it actually would happen. I don’t know much about the Dagor Dagorath (written back when Eönwë was Fionwë-Úrion), though it is hinted to in late sources.

Wilibald Bumble 14/Dec/2006 at 02:45 PM
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Tyrhael,

Wait did you actually find a literary refeerence to suppot the claim that the Dagor Dagorath is a true prophecy?

<Ulmo edit: When you are quoting someone, please be sure to add 200+ characters of your own text.  Quoting adds a hidden code and a significant portion of text to the posts.  With the point system on the Plaza, this is spamming.  Thanks.>

Magradhaid 14/Dec/2006 at 03:48 PM
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>Wait did you actually find a literary refeerence to suppot the claim that the Dagor Dagorath is a true prophecy?

I can’t comment on the details found within the prophecy, like with "Fionwë" and Túrin, though there are numerous references to the "Last Battle", including in "Of Aulë and Yavanna" in the Silmarillion, where it says the Dwarves would serve Aulë and help him rebuild Arda after the Last Battle, the quote from the Akallabêth which mentioned what the Númenóreans believed, and there is also a mention in the Silm. of how the constellation Menelmacar (Orion) ’forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at end of days.’ Those don’t appear in the Silmarillion as given in the 1930s, so I’d guess it was developed later, in the 1950s. There is mention of Fionwë defeating Melkor in ’the Last Battle, the Great Battle, the Terrible Battle’, etc. in the 1930s Silmarillion, but that refers to the last battle during the War of Wrath in the First Age that took about 50 years. There’s also a mention in "The Istari" of UT to ’the Last Battle’, with "Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns."

There’s also the alliterative poem in that section, with the second stanza being
"One [Wizard] only returned. | Others never again | under Men’s dominion | Middle-earth shall seek | until Dagor Dagorath | and the Doom cometh." Does that mean that Saruman, Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards will help in the Last Battle?

Like I said, I can’t comment on the content of the Second Prophecy of Mandos (whenever it was written), but the idea of a ’Last Battle’ certainly existed in Tolkien’s LotR and post-LotR mythos.
Alcarináro 14/Dec/2006 at 04:36 PM
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Wilibald, herein lies the problem. You selectively listen. I requote:
It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition.
   -HoME X: Morgoth’s Ring, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, Note 7
halfir 14/Dec/2006 at 04:50 PM
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I am surprised that no one has quoted the most relevant comment by CT into Dagor Dagorath and the whole ’End of Days’ saga.

In HOME 4 The Shaping of Middle Earth CT writes:

’Into this final resolution of evil in the world it would prove, unprofitable, I think, to enquire too closely.’ {The Ealiest ’Silmarillion’}

The entry in Wikipedia is  more a work of fiction than the fiction the header states it is commenting on!

It is totally ignorant of CT’s comment in The Shaping of ME, it’s reference to Gandalf  and the Nazgul is a flight of misinterpretive fancy, and virtually the whole piece is of self-indulgent speculation and misinterpretation based on nothing more than the inadequate ’scholarship’ of the ignoramus who wrote it.

Articles like this -deservedly- make many raise doubts about the overall quality and integrity of Wikipedia as a trustworthy source. on matters Tolkienian.I suggest that rather than read the purple prose of Wikipedia on the subject we take note of the very authoritative comments made by Elenhir in his posts.

And perhaps someone should draw the attention of Wikipedia to an entry that does them nothing but a major disservice.

Nan Tathren: http://www.lotrplaza.com/archive5/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=21&TopicID=207227&PagePostPosition=1

I am going to start charging you for this service!X(

Nenarye 14/Dec/2006 at 07:41 PM
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halfir - I almost think it would be worth it!
Wilibald Bumble 20/Dec/2006 at 06:11 AM
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Just found some new evidence you really can’t argue with:

"...It was said that in the later days(when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the ’Faithful’ of that time that ’Gandalf’ was the last appearance of Manwe himself, before his final widdrawal to the watchtower of Taniquetil.(That Gandalf said that his name "in the West’ had been Olórin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an icongnito, a mere by-name) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath , and the coming of the End when Melkor returns(**). (The Book of Unfinished Tales, The Istari, Page 395) Herein we see Christopher Tolkien’s notes on many of his footnotes trying to distinguish his fathers writings.

**Also in the footnotes section of that sentence, C Tolkien writes "This is a reference to’the second prophecy of Mandos’, which does not appear in The Silmarillion; its elucidation cannot be attempted here, since it would require some account of the history of the mythology in relation to the published version" (Unfinished Tales, Notes on the Istari, Page 402)

 

Analysis of this can be made and also many counter-arguements, I daresay.

 

Another piece of evidence. This is a piece of loose poetry that Tolkien once did in many of his notes but was published in the Unfinished Tales... It is about the five wizards, emasarries of the Valar but in it lies the mentioning of the ’Dagor Dagorath’. This will disapprove some of you who think this prophecy is very ’un-tolkiniesh’ as Tolkien himself wrote this.

"Wilt thou learn the lore.                      that was long secret

of the Five that came                            from a far country?

One only returned.                                Others never again

under Men’s dominion                          Middle-earth shall seek

until Dagor Dagorath                            and the Doom cometh

(Unfinished Tales, Istari, Page 395-396)

Herein, Tolkien himself has prophesized the Dagor Dagorath and specifically points out that Men will dominize Middle Earth until Melkor escapes from the Door of Night and comes back to Middle Earth with all his strength.

Also, another evidence lies in the Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library. Infact, they have a whole page on it.

Link: http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/dagordagorath.asp

Please Read this before counter arguing if you must.

Forget Wikipedia, for I have found something MUCH MORE BETTER and it comes straight from the book and a very reliable source...The Fanatics Library!

                                               

Alcarináro 20/Dec/2006 at 07:52 AM
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You can argue with anything, Wilibald, as you yourself have shown us. Arguing does not imply being correct. And I can disprove your assertion.

You are quoting from Unfinished Tales. Do you have the book with you? Read the entirety of the chapters in question, including Christopher Tolkien’s comments. Note the dates. Note them carefully. They are earlier in time than what I have quoted. Years earlier. Now, if Tolkien says one thing at one time, then another ten years later, which would you take to be truth? The earlier? No, of course not. The later? Yes. Because the later replaces the earlier. The earlier is a rejected concept. What you quote is rejected. Simply because Tolkien said it at one point in time does not mean that it remains true regardless of what he said later. You are consistently clinging to rejected concepts and trying to use them to validify your incorrect view.
Wilibald Bumble 20/Dec/2006 at 08:55 AM
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 yes you can argue anything Elenhir Also did you read the Library link I posted?

And also if you look at my quote:  "This is a reference to’the second prophecy of Mandos’, which does not appear in The Silmarillion; its elucidation cannot be attempted here, since it would require some account of the history of the mythology in relation to the published version" (Unfinished Tales, Notes on the Istari, Page 402)

Look at that carefully, Unfinished Tales was published and edited after the Silmarillion, infact it was published in 1980 while the Silmarillion was published in officialy released in 1977.

If you look at that quote it CT is careful to mention that the PROPHECY does NOT appear in the Silmaraillion

My deduction from this is not the dates but that Chirstopher Tolkien merely came upon later notes by J.R.R. Tolkien and published them respectively in this book, the Unfinished Tales.

Your quote is right but actually it appears before Unfinished Tales and also if you read the Library Link it says that Dagor Dagorath was called The End....

 

 

Alcarináro 20/Dec/2006 at 09:19 AM
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I’m not quoting the Silmarillion, if you would look back to what I said.
And I’d be very worried if Tolkien had written something seven years after he passed away. Publication date is irrelevant. Utterly irrelevant (and Morgoth’s Ring, which I quoted from, was published in 1993), because Tolkien wrote it far earlier. Check the chapter, not the book cover. Christopher Tolkien, in his analysis, will mention the time his father wrote those words.

And I couldn’t care what the Plaza Library says. It’s hardly perfect. I prefer to use what Tolkien said and did not reject.
Tuna 20/Dec/2006 at 09:23 AM
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Wilibald- I must admit to being baffled by your logic. Since UT was released after The Sil, it must contain newer drafts than HoME X which Elenhir quotes? Is that truly what you are arguing? If so, then your analysis of what UT contains and CT’s own analysis of what UT contains differ greatly, for in the opener to The Istari section of UT, we have
The fullest account of the Istari was written, as it appears, in 1954 ~The Istari, UT
Hardly within the time frame of what we would call one of Tolkien’s later drafts. Same can be claimed of those books referenced in the Library article. Are they there? Yes. Are they Tolkien’s latest writings (and hence, beliefs) that we can find? No. Without having all my books at hand, I can’t say when Elenhir’s quote was written, but I can say with certainty that it is much later than that which is contained in UT.

Maiarian Man 20/Dec/2006 at 10:19 PM
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Elenhir and Tuna - The notes of the Athrabeth, which Elenhir quotes, are dated by CT to about 1959. The alliterative verse of the Istari contained in UT which refers to Dagor Dagorath is not precisely dated by CT. The references to dates on texts at the beginning of the chapter do not cover all texts, so the 1954 date that Tuna references does not hold. We cannot say which text is later, it seems.

The evolution of the idea of Dagor Dagorath is, however, fairly clear. Early on, there was a very solid prophecy coming from Mandos describing details of the last battle as something that for certain would occur. The fanatics library gives one version of this prophecy from the earliest Quenta text. After LotR was written, Tolkien returned to the Silmarillion. He eventually rejected the notion of a prophecy of Mandos concerning Dagor Dagorath. Hence, he writes: "If any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos" (HoME X - The Valaquenta, included as the end of the Quenta Silmarillion in the published Silmarillion). This clearly says Mandos does not prophesize about the end of the world.

The next step is how to deal with all of the rather clear references to a great end that come throughout the Silmarillion legendarium. They could be removed entirely, but it seems Tolkien’s choice was to leave them in as a questionable account. They would be in the text, but the text was a work of men, not Elves. If Elves had written the narratives, the allusions would have to bear on the truth, given the contact between the Elves and the Valar (originally, up through the late 1950s, the Silmarillion was an Eressean work). But men might err in such things. So allusions to the great end cannot be taken for certain.

Of course, we can’t belittle the idea of the great end just because it was a mannish myth. If Tolkien’s revisions had gone through, it’s possible that all of our records of the Elder days would have been mannish affairs, and thus open to the same errors--and it’s not certain that there would have ever been an internal source to show us the errors (only Tolkien the real world author could point out where they might have gone wrong). But even with that in mind, it is clear that the Second Prophecy of Mandos had disappeared, so that all Tolkien was going to leave us were little hints, and no stories, about the end. Though, given the all-important quote from Halfir above, that might even be too bold.

And for the record, the library entry does have at least a small disclaimer in it, so that it not pertaining to be in accord with the final account given by Tolkien (it was supposed to be one broad overview of what the Second Prophecy actually was in the texts where it arises, and if needed a second inquiry into how the story fits into Middle-earth canon).