Elrond and the Ring

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Isiliel 15/Dec/2006 at 09:48 PM
Librarian of Imladris Points: 2351 Posts: 1873 Joined: 04/May/2004
Why was it exactly that Elrond did not push Isildur into the fires of Mount Doom? Was he indeed there? I would search around for it in the books, but I trust the scholars of Lore in these forums to answer the question in ways I can’t.

Any ideas/theories/proofs?
Kinarear 15/Dec/2006 at 11:19 PM
Horse-groom of the Mark Points: 450 Posts: 198 Joined: 30/Oct/2006

Gandalf sez somewhere in LOTR(I think) that no one could perpesly do harm to the ring so I suppose elrond is included. Anyway what would the people of gondor say to having there king Thrown into a volcano.                

halfir 16/Dec/2006 at 12:01 AM
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Why was it exactly that Elrond did not push Isildur into the fires of Mount Doom?

Well if he had we would not be reading LOTR would we?X(

Isildur claimed the One as weregild- for the murder, by Sauron, of his father and brother, the former directly , the latter indirectly (he (Anarion) was killed by a stone cast from Barad- Dur in the Battle of the Last Alliance). Such a claim, both in ME and the RL context from which the weregild or ’blood payment’  concept was taken, would be a virtually overpowering claim which could not be physically contested.

Moreover, Elrond and Cirdan had fought  with Isildur  against Sauron, and while they cautioned him against the act of taking the One, they would not , I suggest, be willing to go further than that.They were , effectively, ’blood brothers’. Moreover, Isildur was a hero of might, not an easy target, not that Elrond or Cirdan would have acted in a forceful way, and even if they had, and  succeeded in wresting it from him, the One, near the very center of its birthing, would be likely to have overwhelmed them with desire to possess it. (cf. Elrond’s comments on the One in FOTR-The Council of Elrond).

And it is a mistake to think that Isldur and Elrond and Cirdan, were at the very brink of Mount Doom’s volcanic core, unlike Frodo and Gollum. They were:

’nigh at hand’

not actually in the center of Mount Doom where Sauron had created the One.

Endril 16/Dec/2006 at 03:45 AM
Healer of Imladris Points: 9193 Posts: 9362 Joined: 15/Jan/2006
I think it’s for the same reason for which Sam didn’t pushed Frodo inside Mount Doom. He couldn’t do that because it was against there friendship. The fought in an alliance and Elrond couldn’t just go and kill Isildur after that.

Here comes the interesting question that has been asked around here about Gollum’s role in the destruction of the ring.
Naduil 16/Dec/2006 at 04:35 AM
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I think that the elf had a sense of honour stronger than his sense of duty if you gather my meaning. I think he was also testing men to see if they would fail when the elves had gone. It lowered Isildur in his eyes but he did not wish to impose his will over a free man. I mean he could have fought Isildur, killed him then thrown the ring into Mt.Doom but he couldn’t bring himself to slay his friend.
Calencoriel 16/Dec/2006 at 04:34 PM
Archer of Imladris Points: 510 Posts: 389 Joined: 26/Dec/2002
 I think it would go against the very nature of Elrond to have either taken the Ring of Power from Islidur or to have murdered Isildur in order to obtain it.. Once the One Ring ensnared a Ringbearer I think there were only a couple of ways that the Ring could leave the Ringbearer. One of those ways was to do as it did in Gollum’s cave, and abandon the Ringbearer; another would be if the Ringbearer were to voluntarily give it up as Bilbo did when he left on his journey to visit the Elves. The Ring of Power was not going to let go of Isildur as at that time it suited it’s purpose to stay with him; and it had such a grip on Isildur that he simply could not destroy it. I agree that the bond the One Ring formed was really to strong to break easily; if at all. Evil was allowed to edure.
merrypip03 16/Dec/2006 at 07:53 PM
Farmer of the Shire Points: 322 Posts: 141 Joined: 13/Jan/2004
I’m going to be dumb and say for the same reason that they didn’t give the ring to the eagles...we needed to have something to read....and I think that Elrond didn’t push him in because Isildur had to make the choice himself. Elrond couldn’t make the choice for him.
AlatarOfOromė 18/Dec/2006 at 01:24 PM
Savant of Isengard Points: 393 Posts: 10 Joined: 18/Dec/2006

Elrond’s relutance to force Isildur to destroy the ring may also have stemmed from his fear of the disempowering of the Three.  If memory serves, Elrond, along with many others feared that the destruction of the One Ring would cause the Three to lose their power to preserve.  And, we know from Tolkien’s own personal writing that the Elves were obsessed with preservation.

I also would reinforce the view that there would be no LoTR if it had ended at Dagorlad.

Brandywine74 19/Dec/2006 at 04:29 AM
Foolhardy Ent of Fangorn Points: 1291 Posts: 562 Joined: 20/Apr/2006

For a start, Elrond and Isildur probably wouldn’t have been right at the Cracks so that he could push him in. It wasn’t like Isildur made a big show of taking the ring either. There’s also no guarantee that Elrond would have been able to overpower Isildur even if he wanted to.

I think the main reason is that perhaps they weren’t as aware of the powers of the ring at this point and it may have been supposed that Sauron was defeated and wouldn’t return. Is there any evidence that the Elves were aware at this point just how Sauron was connected with the ring? The elves were aware of him certainly, but maybe not of the full extent of the ring’s power. Even at the council of Elrond, the elves are unsure what will happen to their own rings once the one is destroyed.

ArgentKnight 28/Dec/2006 at 02:21 AM
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So did the elves think that their rings would lose all of their powers and abilities if the One Ring was destroyed? Why would that be? The Three were created before the One. Even if the Three were technicially subservient to the One Ring, they still had their own power, didn’t they? The whole idea of the Three being ’powered’ so to speak by the One is rediculous in my mind.

elvenpath 28/Dec/2006 at 02:38 AM
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Indeed, the Three were not made or touched by Sauron

 

"The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the Elves of Middle-earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow. But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their hearts and minds will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose." LOTR FOTR The Council of Elrond

 

Elrond suggests the destruction of The One will diminish the The Three

 

"Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief." LOTR FOTR The Council of Elrond

The link between the One and the Three is mentioned by Galadriel in LOTR

 

"(I)t cannot be hid from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lorien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.
He suspects, but he does not know - not yet. Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart to the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten." (LOTR, FOTR, The Mirror of galadriel)

 

But again the Three have as purpose to preserve the world, to maintain things as they were

 

"The Three Rings of the Elves, wielded by secret guardians, are operative in preserving the memory of the beauty of old, maintaining enchanted enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West." (Letter#119)

 

After the destruction of the One, the age of Men came. Elves were history, it was about time for the things to change, as Men’ world is a world of change

Eldszar 28/Dec/2006 at 08:56 AM
Winemaker of Lothlorien Points: 700 Posts: 260 Joined: 13/Dec/2003

"..but I trust the scholars of Lore in these forums to answer the question in ways I can’t."

I’m certainly no ’scholar of Lore’ but, it would make a rather short story if Elrond gave Isildur a little shove, no.