And what beyond?

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Eldurim 18/Dec/2006 at 08:57 AM
Youth of Erebor Points: 38 Posts: 2 Joined: 17/Dec/2006
I have a question that ha’s been buggin mee for quite some time now ... and being a new member i thought it would be good to start with.
I’ve always wonderded what’s beyong te lands that are shown on the middle earth maps ... what’s is beyond that ... because my impresion is that the land doesn’t stop in the north and east. What is beyond that ? And does anyone know how it ends ... if there isn’t anymore?
Tuna 18/Dec/2006 at 09:08 AM
Assassin of Mordor Points: 5570 Posts: 6645 Joined: 11/Mar/2004

We do know that there are lands to the East and South, but just how far they go or what they look like can only really be guessed at as there are only a few maps drawn about them, and those being rather old in when they were drawn. In the Eldar Days, Valinor existed as a reachable land to the West of Middle-earth and the maps we have drawn, and there is also mention of some Eastern Lands by the Walls of the Sun about which we don’t know what happened after the removal of Valinor. The Silmarillion does indicate that new continents and islands were formed with the sinking of Numenor and the removal of Valinor.

Ummm...yeah, that was a random post, wasn’t it?

Eldurim 18/Dec/2006 at 09:11 AM
Youth of Erebor Points: 38 Posts: 2 Joined: 17/Dec/2006
I do not know what you mean by random post but i can tell you that you have helped me a great deal on my quest too know more about the lands of ME and beyond. For that i thank you!
But if anyone has maps that relate to this topic don’t hesitate to post them.
Thanks again Tuna
Turien Silverleaf 18/Dec/2006 at 12:29 PM
Builder of the Shire Points: 1531 Posts: 1894 Joined: 03/Oct/2005
 I have a map in front of me now, so I can briefly describe it for you. North of the map of Middle Earth, is Beleriand, which is just forrest and desert. It’s the wildernes where Strider spent most of his time hunting. To the west of Middle Earth is Valinor, the haven for elves. It is shaped like a star, its an island, and is divided into 5 sections. East of Middle Earth is more wilderness, lakes, and desert. If you need help finding a map, just google one. Google always has good Middle Earth maps. X(
Deagol77 18/Dec/2006 at 12:52 PM
Banned Points: 338 Posts: 64 Joined: 31/Oct/2006

If you want a good thread on stuff in the East, the thread I would suggest is "The East" right here in this forum. An expert on the East is Skauril. He generally frequents the Locations forum. In fact, quite a few of his posts are in the before mentioned thread.

Skauril 18/Dec/2006 at 01:43 PM
Scavenger of Mordor Points: 467 Posts: 163 Joined: 13/Dec/2004

Hehe, thanks Deagol. I am honored that you would consider me an expert.  

Well, I do have an interest in the East of ME that extends beyond that of the average LotR enthusiast, and that has compelled me to gather as much data on the topic as possible.

BTW.. not to go off topic, but I hope your map of the East is coming along nicely!

Oin 18/Dec/2006 at 06:49 PM
Architect of Erebor Points: 11372 Posts: 8807 Joined: 14/Feb/2004
Turien: I wouldn’t trust maps on google. Most likely they were drawn by the Wizards of the Coast (who made the card game) or David Day... or some other enthusiast whos East of Middle-Earth is all imagination with no factual basis. In any event, no map going beyond the eastern borders of the LotR maps was ever drawn by Tolkien, his son, or any authorized cartographer. So it would be best not to rely on any maps found via a Google search.
elendil elessar 18/Dec/2006 at 08:22 PM
Fletcher of Lothlorien Points: 1533 Posts: 4087 Joined: 13/Dec/2008
A quote I find of interest, and unfortunatly don’t have handy right now, is in UT, maybe in the Istari part, anyway it says that the Master meant through Aragorn mouth that he had travelled far into the south where the stars are different, in LoTR, meant that he went in the Southern Hemisphere. So we can deduce that there was a Southern Hemisphere and that it was accesible by a lone ranger in different lands.
Kaulargorn 19/Dec/2006 at 12:57 AM
Messenger of Minas Tirith Points: 938 Posts: 149 Joined: 30/May/2006
The shape of the Earth throughout the history of middle Earth is similar to the speculation of the shape that people beleived Earth had throughout human history. I mean, in the beggining people beleived Earth was flat but then the discoveries of science we found out that it was circular. Tolkien did another clever thing to make his imaginary word seem more realistic
KingODuckingham 19/Dec/2006 at 09:52 PM
Grey Counsellor of Isengard Points: 15053 Posts: 15390 Joined: 27/Aug/2006
Yes, Middle Earth is round, by the way (at least after Valinor was removed from the Circles of the Earth), so if one sailed far enough one would eventually come around, though goodness knows what lies between. My information comes from the Akallabeth, if I remember correctly. Sorry I can’t give a quote (it’s killing me!) but I don’t have my Sil with me.
Miriath 21/Dec/2006 at 02:15 PM
Counsellor of the Mark Points: 12524 Posts: 8617 Joined: 10/Feb/2004

Tolkien based Middle Earth on the likeness of our planet; so Middle Earth is round (and I know that there’s a quote in the Sil, like Ducky said, about it being round - but curses I don’t have it with me) and it’s known that there are far-off lands and other countries that lay beyond the borders - but it’s only to our imagination (and Tolkien, but he’s dead) what lays beyond.

Oin 22/Dec/2006 at 11:43 AM
Architect of Erebor Points: 11372 Posts: 8807 Joined: 14/Feb/2004
Well, to some extent we do know what is beyond the maps - or at least what was beyond them. We know there is a place called Hildorien, where Men awoke, somewhere in the East - and we know that at one point there was a mountain range far in the East known as the Red Mountains. But the exact location of these two geographic locations is unknown - and I believe Hildorien translated is actually something fairly broad, like "Middle-land" or something like that (don’t quote me on that, its just an example), which means that it could be a region and not a specific location.
Magradhaid 22/Dec/2006 at 11:50 AM
Imp of Umbar Points: 7957 Posts: 8204 Joined: 13/Sep/2008
>like "Middle-land"
Rather "Land of the Followers" (Men); "Middle-land" would be Endórë (Ennor), i.e. Middle-earth.
Oin 22/Dec/2006 at 01:12 PM
Architect of Erebor Points: 11372 Posts: 8807 Joined: 14/Feb/2004


As I said, its a fairly broad translation - the Land of Men could be pretty much any size, and since we don’t have maps East of the Sea of Rhun, we have no clue as to the amount of area this land covered. All we know is that it existed, really - not much of a help. I think there is something from the HoME IV texts about it, but I don’t recall what they tell us.

Saranna 28/Dec/2006 at 04:04 AM
Lúthien Points: 9281 Posts: 11259 Joined: 06/Feb/2004
Please try to get hold of a copy of "The atlas of Tolkien’s Middle Earth" by the late Karen Wynn Fonstad - it is generally accepted to be the best of such works and she will show you not just the far east of ME but more details of the West and of Numenor - I recommend it.
Wilibald Bumble 01/Jan/2007 at 08:53 AM
New Soul Points: 647 Posts: 197 Joined: 03/Dec/2006
Ok, It is mentioned in the Silmarillion that more continents were formed during the Downfall of Numenor. Also more mention of travel is made in the chapter Council of Elrond where his sons travel down the Silverlode "into a far country" and will not tell anyone of their mission but Elrond. Also, Aragon travels to Far Harad where he mentions the "stars are strange". We can presume from this that he is in the Southern Hemisphere by his comment of the stars. What lies beyond that might be more jungle and deserts and mostly wastelands. The mariners of Numenor did travel far and wide and not just to middle earth. I have heard reports of a "Dark Continent" south of middle earth where Numenor may have gone too although no literay references show otherwise except some vague hints. East of the sea of Rhun is just more wasteland and that is where the Blue Wizards are presumed to be. Orome knows the boundries of Middle Earth as he has traveled far and wide in the Elder Days. West of valinor is just wide, we must presume, as the Lords of Middle Earth like Manwe have always kept their watch to the East not more westwards.

The earliest maps in the Silmarillion do hint of some jagged mountains or the "walls of the sun" and deductions could be made on where they are exactly in the later maps of Middle Earth. North of Middle Earth is just the Ice waste which I think was Beleriand or the Ice from whence the Noldor travelled from and entered Middle Earth.