VT: Identity - TIME TO JUDGE

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Rohanna 21/Dec/2006 at 01:22 PM
New Soul Points: 112 Posts: 25659 Joined: 16/Sep/2003

Hello all you lorists and lorist wannabees - Iím Lady Yavanna here for the Valinor Telethon Network bringing your our latest game show Identity - YOU be the Judge

  Iíve narrowly escaped the evil Momo aka Morgoth, Sauron, and sometimes Eru, who has turned my beautiful self into a Nazgullian Hobbit while alpha testing the new Plaza. 
So now I am doomed to wander the new Plaza scorned and ridiculed because people think I canít possibly exist. 

I need your help! 
Make a Nazgullian Hobbit something that could be known in Middle-earth - please!

You can choose whether or not you use Tolkien quotes to prove your theory, but either way, quotes or nonquotes, the challenge is to describe just what a Nazgullian Hobbit is, how they came to be, how they live, what purpose they serve, etc.  Good guys, bad guys, invisible or fat and hairy?

No long debate style posts please - yes Iím asking you to make an argument, but everyone will be judging these and we canít have big long posts or weíll all go as blind as a Nazgullian Hobbit! (who may or may not be blind but it sounded good)

This will be open to all entrants until December 26, then I will close it for entries and everyone who uses the lora fora will be asked to vote for their 3 favorite arguments, from which an overall winner will be chosen. 

What does the winner get you ask?  Well I guess that depends on what the winner wants and how many entries we get.  If enough quality entries, I would say the winner could choose between a 6-month SM or a big wad of tribute or just the knowledge that you are the best at proving your case in all of Arda!

Challenge:  Describe a Nazgullian Hobbit

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merrypip03 21/Dec/2006 at 02:59 PM
Farmer of the Shire Points: 322 Posts: 141 Joined: 13/Jan/2004
While the Nazgul are motivated by the ruling of the One Ring, a Nazgullian Hobbit has a different motivation. Hobbits were never ruled by the Ring because they did not possess any rings of power of their own, therefore the sway of the One ring can’t be their motivation. Nazgullian Hobbits feel the pull of the ring but it’s not as powerful, and so they feel the urge to return to the peace they had once known as true Hobbits. They live in the Old Forest on the borders of the Shire because they cannot enter the Shire anymore.
Magradhaid 21/Dec/2006 at 04:49 PM
Imp of Umbar Points: 7957 Posts: 8204 Joined: 13/Sep/2008
Nazgullian Hobbits are some of the Stoors who lived in Dunland around TA 1300 when the NazgŻl reappeared. Around this time they migrated westward (some to Bree), when the Witch-king was moving to Angmar. On the way, some were attacked by Ringwraiths and stabbed with Morgul-knives. When Frodo was stabbed with one of these in LotR, Gandalf said "They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord..." In that case, these Stoors (now Nazgullian Hobbits) would live as powerless puppets controlled by the Ringwraiths, tormented by Sauron, aging more slowly and surviving for millenia more. They retained consciousness, but were not in control of their own bodies or minds, having no free will but only able to watch in horror as they were commanded and tortured by the Lord of Mordor and his minions.
Elhir Bregalad 21/Dec/2006 at 06:48 PM
Merchant of Mirkwood Points: 997 Posts: 777 Joined: 24/Feb/2005

Nazgulian Hobbit you say?  Boy I haven’t told that story in a Dragon’s age.  I don’t know if I can remember all of it but I’ll give it a try if’n it’ll appease ya.  Now where to begin....Ah yes that’s it.

Now this here story begins way back in the Third Age, after all that business with the first Dark Lord but before the second got whipped.  Back in those days some hobbits were still coming along across the Misty Mountains like my grand grand grand pappys grandpappy, or were there fours grands?  Ah well that doesn’t matter now anyway along the road on the near side of the Misty Mountains, that’d be the west side, one particularly wild and curious hobbit, a Took I think he was, decided he wanted to strike out on his own and make his own settlement for Hobbits.  Now his name was, what was his name... Blanba!  Yes that’s it Blanba Took was his name and all the other Hobbits thought he was crazy for going off on his own and leaving the rest of them but he didn’t care;  His name was gonna go down in history as one of the first Hobbits to settle the lands of the North and for a while he did well he set himself up a little cozy house which he dug out of the ground, an ingenious idea, and was in the process of preparing for newcomers that he would welcome into his Hobbit settlement, he hadn’t of a name for it just yet, but all was going well or so Blanba thought.  On a time Blanba, being well settled and ready for company, decided that he would go back to Misty Mountain pass and show newcoming Hobbits where they could find his settlement with plenty of room and opportunities.  Blanba had his settlement farther North and it was no short distance back to the mountain pass.  He gathered a little food he had collected and set off;  He hiked mostly along the skirts of the mountains and he slept under the stars in wonder of this new land.  After a about another day and a few miles Blanba was walking down the path to his surprise a giant, well giant to him, black horse jumped out onto the road and sitting atop that horse was a rider all in black, we know them as the Nazgul now but then Blanba had no idea what or who it was.  Blanba being the curious hobbit that he was crept up closer and closer to this rider in black and when he looked up into the hood he couldn’t see a face.  Now this scared our friend Blanba a little bit but he thought he should be friendly and so he introduced himself, Hello my name is Blanba took may I have yours dark rider?, he said and after that he heard a long slow hiss come from the rider and watched in fear as the horseman pulled out a sharp and cold looking sword;  Blanba turned to run but the rider was too fast for him and he stabbed Blanba right through the heart and then just as quickly as he had arrived the black rider was gone and Blanba was left laying there on the road, the poor hobbit.  Now it would have bee better for Blanba to just die but no he didn’t, he laid there on the road getting colder and colder and after a while he became like the black rider who had stabbed him, cold and dark.  Now time passed and the years marched by and even now folk speak of Blanba the Nazgulian Hobbit and how sometimes if your by yourself walking along those paths to the Misty Mountains Blanba might just pay you a visit and take you back to his hobbit settlement so you can join him in his eternal misery.  The End.

This story is as told by a hobbit grandfather to his hobbit grandchildren in his hobbit hole in The Shire.  Circa: Fourth Age.

I made my post out to seem like there was only one Nazgulian Hobbit instead of an entire race of them and I hope you enjoy it.

AlcarinŠro 21/Dec/2006 at 06:56 PM
Banned Points: 14162 Posts: 14178 Joined: 24/Sep/2003
We define ’Nazgul’ as Ringwraith, that is a wraith that has been made such by means of a Ring. So we determine that the only process by which anything ’Nazgullian’ (to use so bizarre a term) could be made such would be by Ring, only by Ring.
Therefore it follows that a ’Nazgullian Hobbit’ would be a Hobbit who suffers the wraithing process by means of a Ring. But what is a Hobbit? A Hobbit is that which calls itself a Hobbit. They did not call themselves such until they entered Eriador, and this occured about the year 1050 of the Third Age.
Given, also, that the destruction of the One Ring occured in the year 3019. We note that there is a separation of roughly two millenia between these dates.
Now, we question what Ring this woefully unfortunate hypothetical Hobbit would have. Not the One, for it is accounted for during these times. Not the Nine, for Sauron had them. Not the Three, if one wishes to argue that the Three could cause wraithing. One of the Seven is the only possibility, for only the fate and history of each of the Seven is not undeniably known.
It must be argued that the corrupting influence of one of the Seven would be far less than that of the One. It must also be noted that, of all Hobbits, Smeagol was of the type most suited for corruption. Therefore, given that Smeagol, bearing the One for nigh half a millenium, was not yet a wraith, nor gave any indication of soon becoming one, we must conclude that the time it would take to make a Hobbit, even of the most evil sort, ’Nazgullian’ by means of one of the Seven Rings would take many times over what it took the One to bring Smeagol to the state in which we know him. Therefore, I assert that there is not enough time between the existence of Hobbits as Hobbits and the destruction of the Ring to complete the wraithing process on a Hobbit with the most potent available Ring. Therefore, I conclude that there is no possibility of a ’Nazgullian Hobbit’.
And therefore, I scorn and ridicule you.
Sil 22/Dec/2006 at 01:11 PM
New Soul Points: 25641 Posts: 21386 Joined: 22/Sep/2004

For easier reading, I’m going to lay out this argument step by step....

1. Humans are related to hobbits.
2. Elves are not related to humans. Nevertheless, they can still interbreed with humans.
3. By extension, hobbits can also interbreed with humans. (Please do not attempt to picture this, or, as Roh said, you may well go blind as the proverbial Nazgulian hobbit.)
4. Some people are into anything.
5. It might even be possible that yes, some weird freaky hobbit might be into wraiths.
6. Or maybe the wraith just got confused, you know, what with not being able to see. I mean the horses can see, but wraiths can’t see. Hence the smelling.
7. So the Nazgul only act to carry out the order of their Master: but they definitely did spend some time in the Shire, trying to get hobbits to tell them where ol’ Baggins was.
8. Well, you know, sometimes sweet persuasion works where hissing "FIIIIIIIND ME BAAAAAAGGINSSSSS" does not..
9. And, perhaps, in a moment of confusion, where Khamul or one of his ilk was holding up a lovely young hobbit lass by the throat and growling at her, big blue eyes met glowing red sparks/totally nothing and something clicked...
10. So, about nine months later, or whenever, the first Nazgulian Hobbit was born, complete with evil disposition and partial invisibility - of course, nobody can prove this, as you probably can’t see a Nazgulian Hobbit. All hushed up by that sneaky Mayor guy Sam when he got back.
11. They are distinguishable by their curly hair, beautiful, big, digitally enhanced glowing red eyes, noble stance, and black cloak.
12. Unfortunately, unlike the nobler homo nazgulius, the "Nazgulian Hobbit" or homunculus nazgulius is far too short to ride a horse, so let’s leave out the Black Rider business.
13. For amusement the Nazgulian Hobbit enjoys dancing around the Maypole, courting fair hobbit lassies, and aiding people in world domination. Also tend to be drawn to shiny jewellery and trinkets of that sort. Many a Nazgulian Hobbit has been spotted having a violent argument with a magpie over who saw what first.
14. They are however one of the few Hobbit breeds not to enjoy smoking pipes, as they apparently have a small fire phobia. Moreover, many of them are afraid of Rohirric women with long beautiful golden hair, especially the violent ones, although to be fair it is not only Nazgulian Hobbits who are uneasy around those ladies.
15. One of them once kicked up a fuss with Rosie over having a Cat to catch mice in the Green Dragon, claiming "A Fell Beast would work much better".

Maiarian Man 22/Dec/2006 at 01:13 PM
Steward of Isengard Points: 9003 Posts: 10968 Joined: 10/Mar/2002
Elenhir - You note that after around 500 years, Smeagol had yet to become a wraith, and therefore it would take much longer than 500 years to make a hobbit into a wraith than 500 years. However, Smeagol had already come to the end of the line. The Ring had reduced him as far as it could reduce a Hobbit: "Longevity or counterfeit ’immortality’ (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron - it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith" (Letter 212). Thus, a hobbit could never become a a Ringwraith, regardless of how long he possessed a ring. Therefore, all the more scorn and ridicule.
Blackrose Bugg 22/Dec/2006 at 04:09 PM
New Soul Points: 21505 Posts: 30286 Joined: 19/Jan/2003

Au contraire, mon cher Elenhir.  In the finest tradition of cold case detectives, a strong circumstantial case for the existence of a nazgullian hobbit can be derived from the forensic evidence, in this case, the surviving texts.

Nazguls and hobbits share a number of interesting traits-traits that are not ascribed to other races.  For example, they both shun water, especially swift moving water.

Most Hobbits regarded even rivers and small boats with deep misgivings, and not many of them could swim. (FotR, Prologue)

All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-King, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge.(Unfinished Tales, Text B, notes to The Hunt for the Ring)

Both Nazgul and Hobbits were very hard to see when they wanted to be concealed

They [hobbits] possessed from the first the art of disappearing swiftly and silently, when large folk whom they do not wish to meet come blundering by; and this art they have developed until to Men it may seem magical. (FoTR, Prologue)

They [Nazgul] could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun.
(The Sil, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)

There is a common ancestry. 

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. 
(FotR, Prologue)

Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. 
(The Sil, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)

In any criminal investigation, there are three key elements that must be resolved in order for the investigation to be successfully concluded - Means, Motive and Opportunity.

When the shadow of Sauron entered Greenwood the Great and began gathering all evil to himself there - the hobbits fled.  They were there, in the area.  How easy would it have been to capture a few and turn them to his evil purposes?

Their earliest tales seem to glimpse a time when they dwelt in the upper vales of Anduin, between the eaves of Greenwood the Great and the Misty Mountains. Why they later undertook the hard and perilous crossing of the mountains into Eriador is no longer certain. Their own accounts speak of the multiplying of Men in the land, and of a shadow that fell on the forest, so that it became darkened and its new name was Mirkwood. (Fotr, Prologue)

There is the Opportunity.

And hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge.
(FotR, Shadows of the Past)

There is the Motive.

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last.
(The Sil, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)

Many rings...There are the Means. 

Means, Motive and Opportunity, coupled with the characteristic traits as mentioned above...obviously a Nazgullian Hobbit COULD arise from the depths of the evil within Sauron.  And may Elenhir never meet one in a dark alley!

KingODuckingham 22/Dec/2006 at 09:32 PM
Grey Counsellor of Isengard Points: 15053 Posts: 15390 Joined: 27/Aug/2006
I agree with Elenhir and MM on the ridicule to be heaped on the idea of a hobbit corrupted by a ring and turned into a Nazgul. However, the challenge is to describe a "Nazgullian" hobbit, not a Nazgul-hobbit. Nazgullian can be interpreted as Nazgul-like or Nazgul-esque, in which case we can simply define it not as Ringwraith (which is the absurdity) but merely a wraith. In which case I refer you to the case of Frodo after he was stabbed on Weathertop, when he was slowly joining the wraith world, and Gandalf tells him afterwards he was on the brink, about to "become a wraith like them". Thus he would have all the attributes like enslavement to Sauron’s will, invisibility to the eye (Gandalf notes a slight translucency hanging about Frodo afterwards), etc. but none of their power, other than perhaps that of inspiring fear.
Rohanna 25/Dec/2006 at 04:16 PM
New Soul Points: 112 Posts: 25659 Joined: 16/Sep/2003
We interrupt this program to bring you the following special announcement:

And also to remind everyone that you have one day left to get your arguments in!

and also don’t forget that from now until the end of the year Supporting Memberships are buy-1-get-one-free!

Aslar Haechil 25/Dec/2006 at 05:35 PM
Scribe of Minas Tirith Points: 2221 Posts: 1469 Joined: 30/Jul/2003

Nazgullian Hobbit: A middle-aged Hobbit who’s use of  pipe tobbacco has been suddenly and forcefully ended through physical or phycological means, usually by Mrs. Hobbit. He lusts after the sweet leaf with the deepest convinction of his tortured soul. They travel stealthily among their bretheren in search of an easy fix, but there is nothing for them. They are lured by the aroma of their addiction to distant land, but even upon finding its source, to partake in it’s glory would lead to certain, severe consequences. Mrs. Hobbit can easily recognize  smoke breath originating several days in advance. This creature became endagered with the development of the nicotine patch.

Rohanna 27/Dec/2006 at 07:17 PM
New Soul Points: 112 Posts: 25659 Joined: 16/Sep/2003

oops, sorry folks I was just a wee bit late in closing this down for arguments and opening it up for judging.

but I’m here now - and I hereby declare the competition over - LET THE JUDGING BEGIN.

Please pick your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice.

Good luck to all contestants

Magradhaid 27/Dec/2006 at 08:11 PM
Imp of Umbar Points: 7957 Posts: 8204 Joined: 13/Sep/2008
For clarification, this means anyone browsing the Lore forums who did not enter an argument may vote? And the choices for voters would be out of the posts of merrypip03, Tyrhael, Radalas, Elenhir, Silendra, MM, Beebs, KoD, and Aslar Haechil?
Rohanna 27/Dec/2006 at 08:12 PM
New Soul Points: 112 Posts: 25659 Joined: 16/Sep/2003
exactly correct oh god of languages - sorry for not making that clearer.
merrypip03 28/Dec/2006 at 01:59 PM
Farmer of the Shire Points: 322 Posts: 141 Joined: 13/Jan/2004
1. me
2. Aslar
3. KoD

Simply because I think we followed the rules the best (the no long arguments rule) and because I think they were the funniest/most clever.
Sil 28/Dec/2006 at 02:50 PM
New Soul Points: 25641 Posts: 21386 Joined: 22/Sep/2004
merrypip03, according to Tyrhael (and verified by purple and therefore all-powerful Rohroh)  we who posted arguments cannot even vote, let alone vote for ourselves. But, speaking purely speculatively, I think Beeb’s insightful use of quotations was commendable.
merrypip03 28/Dec/2006 at 04:22 PM
Farmer of the Shire Points: 322 Posts: 141 Joined: 13/Jan/2004
I just wanted to bump it up and I thought it would be funny...I know my votes don’t count but I’m still allowed to give my opinion
AlcarinŠro 29/Dec/2006 at 04:10 PM
Banned Points: 14162 Posts: 14178 Joined: 24/Sep/2003
I like how no one is voting.
Rohanna 29/Dec/2006 at 04:16 PM
New Soul Points: 112 Posts: 25659 Joined: 16/Sep/2003

bleh I said in the first post that  "everyone" could vote, which included contestants.  When I answered Tyrhael’s question, I honestly didn’t even notice the "NOT" in his question, I thought he was clarifying that anyone could vote, not that anyone except contestants could vote - sorry about that.

so, everyone, PLEASE vote, EVERYONE who uses the lore forums is invited to vote.  Sorry for the confusion, blame it on the minion for confusing me when I thought my first post was perfectly clear

Magradhaid 29/Dec/2006 at 04:33 PM
Imp of Umbar Points: 7957 Posts: 8204 Joined: 13/Sep/2008

Haha. Ok, hereís my vote, though Iím basing it on the part of the requirements that state the point is to describe what they could be, and not why they wouldnít exist. That leaves for choices merrypip03, Tyrhael, Radalas, Silendra, Beebs, KoD, and Aslar. Out of those, merrypip03 didnít answer how they came to be, Radalas didnít answer what the Nazgullian Hobbit did after becoming one, KoD seems to refute Elenhirís point by making use of the argument I originally made, and Aslarís post, though hilarious, didnít link the Hobbits with NazgŻl in any way. I donít mean to criticize their posts, just provide a reason as to why Iím picking the posts am (and why Iím daring to vote for myself, haha). So out of the following three I order them as:

1) Beebs, for her use of quotes
2) Silendra for her wonderful use of humor
3) Tyrhael, because Iím the last option according to my previous logic, and besides, I like my argument

<Yavanna edit:  and sorry but you will always be a minion to me >

KingODuckingham 29/Dec/2006 at 05:15 PM
Grey Counsellor of Isengard Points: 15053 Posts: 15390 Joined: 27/Aug/2006
1. Tyrhael
2. KingODuckingham
3. Radalas

Magradhaid 29/Dec/2006 at 05:27 PM
Imp of Umbar Points: 7957 Posts: 8204 Joined: 13/Sep/2008
Roh: What? I’m not a Minion still? *checks* Oh... yeah. I changed to Rohan a while ago. But I don’t post there.
Elhir Bregalad 29/Dec/2006 at 05:33 PM
Merchant of Mirkwood Points: 997 Posts: 777 Joined: 24/Feb/2005

I did so state what the Nazgulian Hobbit did after becoming one, reread my post near the end, and as for my vote;  I didn’t post just so I could shoot myself in the foot at the finish line so here goes

1. Radalas

2. Blackrose Bugg

3. Tyrhael

Yarrow Loamsdown 30/Dec/2006 at 12:40 AM
Brewer of the Shire Points: 996 Posts: 415 Joined: 12/Apr/2003
1. Silendra
2. Blackrose Bugg
Sil 30/Dec/2006 at 06:32 AM
New Soul Points: 25641 Posts: 21386 Joined: 22/Sep/2004
Tyrhael, you’re only in Rohan to eat the horses, right? Right? Everything’s okay then. *g*

Very well then -
1. Beebs.
2. Aslar. I don’t know why that makes a hobbit Nazgulian, but ... good enough for Mrs. Hobbit is good enough for me.
3. Tyrhael.

I don’t believe in voting for oneself, which is a shame. *sighs regrefully* and Roh, everything is your fault, except the stuff which is Loony’s fault or TarŪn’s fault or something.
Phil_d_one 30/Dec/2006 at 09:45 AM
Shipwright of Umbar Points: 13181 Posts: 12667 Joined: 14/Jan/2004
1. Phil..duh
2. Silendra for humour
3. BB for great post but shoddy logic
4. Elenhir for good points.
Sil 31/Dec/2006 at 03:56 AM
New Soul Points: 25641 Posts: 21386 Joined: 22/Sep/2004

I love the way people assume I was trying to be funny, there. Actually that’s what passes for logic in my brain.

Rohanna 01/Jan/2007 at 05:39 PM
New Soul Points: 112 Posts: 25659 Joined: 16/Sep/2003

Silly me, I’m going to close this thread now and a) judge myself, then b) tabulate all the votes, and then c)announce the winners on the New Plaza.

thanks to everyone who has given it a go, the reading has been quite interesting

and a big, huge, major  to all those who’ve become Supporting Members - thank you from all of us who enjoy this place.   And thank you on behalf of the Valinor Telethon for enjoying the show.