I Found the Entwives! (again)

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Ardamir 29/Dec/2006 at 04:52 AM
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This is a continuation of the archived and closed thread I Found the Entwives!. I decided to post a new thread, because on another Tolkien forum a new post concerning this subject has appeared that may be very significant.

Ladies and Gentlmen, in my corresponding "I Found the Entwives!" thread on the Barrow Downs, this post has been made. We have a new "Teleporno" here. But this could really be it. What do you think?
Son of Huor 29/Dec/2006 at 05:23 AM
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I’m not sure what to think about the thread you linked us to. Its is about a some allegedly very interestiing information in ttt about the ENtwives, hidden in a cryptic formulation. The only seemingly possible allusion I have seen suggested is the description of Ithiliën, but there was no reaction to that.
Is there anything to it at all?
Phil_d_one 29/Dec/2006 at 07:45 AM
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This really amuses me. It has been, to date, 3 years and 8 months since this Teleporno chap made the post on the Minas Tirith forum that you reference. He comes out, makes his claim, makes a few more cryptic references, and disappears. Other people make the same cryptic claims, and offer no further suggestion as to what it actually is.

My question is this: if there is indeed a DaVinci Code in TLotR leading us to the presence of the Entwives,

i) Why would Tolkien tell us in the Letters that they were dead?
ii) Why is it that nobody has actually given the ignorant masses (read: us) the clues?
iii) Even if we accept that the nature is such that, in finding, one wouldn’t wish to share, why have so few found it?

The way I see it, there is only one of three explanations for this whole thing:

i) One big joke -- nobody has seen any clues of any sort.
ii) A joke by Teleporno that led others to think they have found something.
iii) The actual presence of something that has been misinterpreted in much the same way Balrog’s wings were.

You can’t expect to be taken seriously when you maintain that you alone have the answer, and then refuse to share, as some of these people would do well to learn. Rubbish, I say.
Túrin 29/Dec/2006 at 08:08 AM
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Phil,

Three Cheers!  I personally agree with the "vastly-misconstrued ’something" option.  This Teleporno character (who’se name has garnered no more respect from me than the last time it was mentioned here) himself said "Of ocurse my "evidence" is subjective", which makes me think he picked out a few words here and there and decided they togather were evidence of the Entwives.

Just for laughs, I’ll put an offer out to put this to rest:
The first person who can locate, quote, and explain this Teleporno’s ’theory’ (if it even deserves such a name), will get rewards directly from me, including upwards of 70 tribute points.
This offer has no time limit.

Ristin 29/Dec/2006 at 08:11 AM
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i looked through the threads, what is the secret???? doesn’t anyone say it outloud?
Túrin 29/Dec/2006 at 08:16 AM
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Nobody says it.  It’s allegedly a riddle or joke that Tolkien left which his academic peers would have understood.

I find it nonsense, but would be interested in seeing the argument for it, if it even exists.

geordie 29/Dec/2006 at 08:48 AM
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*looks up from proper Tolkien books*

Is this thread back again? I’ll sort it out - let’s see, what are the clues?

TT

one word, or collection of words

Carpenter; Lewis: middle-class women who disapprove of men [bad definition of suffragette]

right... well, in 1912, young Ronald spent Christmas at Barnt Green near Birmingham with his Incledon relatives. As usual the family amused themselves with theatricals, and Ronald wrote a play called ’The Bloodhound, the Chef and the Suffragette’. [shades of Lewis’ The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, published 38 years later. Very tenuous, this!] Tolkien not only wrote the play; he also took the leading role, that of ’Professor Joseph Quilter, M.A, B.A, ABC, alias world-wide detective Sexton Q.Blake-Holmes, the Bloodhound’, who is searching for a lost heiress Gwendoline Goodchild [shades of the Gamgees?] It’s in Carpenter’s biography; ch.4, ’Oxford’.

Anyway - I suppose that Teleporno has in some way connected C S Lewis with the mystery of the Entwives; and has swallowed the bit about Treebeard’s voice being based on Lewis [I think I read something recently about where Tolkien vehemently denied Lewis having anything to do with ents. ]

So, what do Lewis and TT have in common? The word ’dryad’. Tolkien writes that Ithilien retained a certain ’dryad loveliness’, [Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit] and woods in Narnia are stuffed with dryads; that is, women who look like trees [or the other way round]. So there you go; the great riddle [or joke] is that the Entwives are alive and well, and living in Narnia.

I’m off back to me books.

geordie 29/Dec/2006 at 08:51 AM
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Ooh - several others have posted while I was reading up, and writing me post.
Multiple simuls!
Alcarináro 29/Dec/2006 at 09:26 AM
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The first Teleporno was a fool. I see no reason to think that the person who made that isn’t the very same person. Regardless, the fact that he or she is employing such a method shows nothing other than that he or she is, as well, a fool.
I must agree with halfir when he commented on the parting note of my first post about this ’theory’ in the previous thread: ’A load of bull’ is ’far too polite a dismissal’.
Boromir88 29/Dec/2006 at 10:07 AM
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Elenhir, I venture into the ’Downs quite a bit I can assure you the person Ardamir links to is no Teleporno and definitely no fool.  He’s a funny chap with a bright mind.  Of course, that doesn’t mean he’s right in this instance.

I think Teleporno believed he/she found something to the Entwives, though if they actually did; I doubt it...who knows?  Geordie perhaps has just posted the best to this possible answer I have read about the topic.  The connection between CS Lewis and Tolkien both using ’dryads.’    Those who claim they found the entwives go off a feeling that Tolkien left some sort of ’easter egg hunt’ for people to find about who represents who.  Which I don’t think is entire crapola as if we take some things into consideration here...

Tom Bombadil’s two other names are Forn and Orald...which just so happens to be the anagram ’For Ronald.’  Also in Letter #25 Tolkien says that Smaug was a ’low philological jest.’ 

I agree with Turin though I mean those who claim they found it do not come out and say it.  Until they do there’s really no argument for their claim.  So they either believe they found this ’joke’ or they are just looking for attention.  Geordie’s recent post is the first (and probably best) I’ve seen that comes even close in attempting to uncovering the supposed joke.

geordie 29/Dec/2006 at 10:24 AM
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Thanks, Boromir.    [actually, the facts I give - from Biography and TT - are genuine. And I really do think that this is what Teleporno was getting at, though it seems like an exercise in pointlessness to me].

But anyway - do I qualify for the extra points?
Alcarináro 29/Dec/2006 at 03:26 PM
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Boromir, I would label a fool anyone who truly believes that the stuff geordie has posted proves or implies that the Entwives are still alive and in Narnia.

I bet there were beavers in Greenwood the Great. Oh look, when Greenwood became Mirkwood the evilness would have pushed those beavers out. Oh look, there are beavers in Narnia! Coincidence!?!?
Yeah, coincidence. It’s a logical fallacy that is created when a person sees two things that they think could be related, but there is absolutely no evidence for the case, and that person claims that they are not only related, but one and the same. It’s the reason that on occasion one will see in this forum a thread that claims the great beasts that drew Grond were nothing other than the Kine of Araw. No reason whatsoever, just a person who assumes that beasts = cattle, then assumes that cattle = cattle we have already heard about, then assumes that there are no mentions of the Kine of Araw at the time of the War of the Ring because Sauron enslaved them all.

Absolute nonsense. All of it, and fools all who subscribe to it.
Magradhaid 29/Dec/2006 at 04:17 PM
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To me it seems a bit of an Emperor’s New Clothes’ topic, though I am sure Teleporno was sure that he had actually found something. After all, he also posted on another forum that Gollum was the true hero... and of course if JRRT spoke otherwise in his letters it’s because he wanted us to puzzle out the Truth™! But my goal at any rate is not to find the Entwives, but the ’jest’ he thought Tolkien was making. I have found no reference to "eves of grass" in LotR, and indeed "eves" only occurs in "Eve", and even there has no significance. Is it to be taken as some kind of anagram? I wish I knew what type of word clusters to look for! There’s the theme of women / suffragettes, though, and I’ve re-read his letters on women and the Entwives. I was planning to re-read the second half of TTT anyway; I didn’t know this had spread to so many forums!  Though I can spot one thing wrong with Teleporno’s post: his claim that it was his ’nineteenth’ reading. As he had only read it six times two months before posting on Minas Tirith, that was either a hyperbole or a clue. Is it somehow supposed to refer to the nineteenth chapter of TTT? I at any rate have found little; I will update later after re-reading the volume. Argh!
Ardamir 29/Dec/2006 at 05:11 PM
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I suggest that we concentrate on the hints the phantom has given in his post on the BD now. He does not sound like a hoax to me. There is only the risk that he has found something that he thinks is what Teleporno found, but is not, or that he has found something that has been proposed before.
Túrin 29/Dec/2006 at 05:18 PM
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To encourage getting precisely such hints out, Ardamir, I have made the offer above.

Geordie - very interesting post, though I’m not sure it’s what was hinted at by the people Ardamir links to - it seems like what it being suggested is several references (I imagine several times pulling a few words out of context) in TTT, and perhaps even, as was suggested in of the the comments linked to, a discrepancy with FotR.  Nonetheless, I’ve left some change in your pocket.

Ardamir 29/Dec/2006 at 05:58 PM
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I do not think that Tolkien connected his mythology with someone else’s creation - that just does not seem to be his style. Furthermore, he disliked Lewis’s Narnia stories.

Biography:

’It really won’t do!’ Tolkien told Roger Lancelyn Green. ’I mean to say: "Nymphs and their Ways, The Love-Life of a Faun"!’
geordie 29/Dec/2006 at 06:00 PM
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Coo - thanks, Turin.
Oin 29/Dec/2006 at 06:32 PM
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I was actually about to post the entire passage that the "dryad" quote that geordie mentions was from, but I couldn’t find any connections to suffragettes. However, I think I have the connection with FotR that is false: in the passage from Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit, it says the Hobbits have come a long distance south of their homeland. But in Book II of FotR, I’m pretty sure that it says despite all the eastward progress the Fellowship made, they were only 20 leagues or something south of the Shire. I have, alas, been unable to locate the quote (I’m sure it exists somewhere in Book II), but if it is spoken anywhere near the northern marches of Ithilen, it would be the discrepancy. If not, I’m just crazy.

Of course, assuming that these two people are not one and the same, there is also the possibility that they are just looking at different sections from one another. Keep in mind, the second character said Teleporno didn’t use his best piece of evidence, which leads me to think that he didn’t find the passage himself, only used reader applicability to find a different passage. But, in the interests of finding the answer (assuming both people found the same passage), here are the criteria:

1. Must be in Book IV
2. Involves a small action
3. Reminiscent of "British women in the early 20th century...Suffragists...women who wouldn’t put up with foolish, boorish men..."
4. Is inconsistent with something stated in Book II
5. Can be found amidst word clusters
6. There is a joke located inherently within the passage that Tolkien and his "cronies" would understand

Personally, I think we should all double-check Sauron’s furnace to make sure they aren’t there...

Magradhaid 29/Dec/2006 at 08:50 PM
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I just re-read (and not skimming) the entire "second half" of TTT (and by that I don’t mean just Book IV, but according to page numbers). I found nothing that would suggest to me a hidden meaning, ’joke’, or word clusters out of the ordinary, and didn’t find the ’action’ that the phantom spoke of. I also found nothing that (to me) hinted of British women. The only thing I found that could remotely be possibly connected to the Entwives (though not by me) would be the passage that runs such, as it could in some way refer to the passage from Letters about the Entwives possibly being enslaved by Sauron: "They had come to the desolation that lay before Mordor: the lasting monument to the dark labour of its slaves that should endure when all their purposes were made void; a land defiled, diseased beyond all healing – unless the Great Sea should enter in and wash it with oblivion. `I feel sick,’ said Sam. Frodo did not speak." [emphasis mine]
Alcarináro 29/Dec/2006 at 10:16 PM
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Except there the ’dark labour’ in question is the desolation, the defiling and diseasing of the land. Not something Ent or Entwife would have any part in, even if enslaved. I see no logical way any person could connect that with the Entwives.

Furthermore, as I believe I said in the previous thread, I do believe you are all just wasting your time looking for this ’joke’, this ’evidence’. It’s not there. After all, did not Teleporno himself say that he was surprised no one had seen it before? And then in the few years since, two people besides him have ’found’ it? No, those people aren’t that special. They don’t have some gifted sight that each in turn brought them to see something no one had noticed for half a century. Were they that special, they would have tried to educate rather than confusticate. They do not. Were they that special, they would have made some sort of insightly breakthrough in some other aspect. They do not. Therefore, to conclude, I disbelieve.
Boromir88 29/Dec/2006 at 10:47 PM
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Elenhir, I’m not going to sit back and watch you insult a person I’ve known for several years; especially since that person isn’t here.  I ask next time you should get to know somebody before applying labels to them.  Disagreeing with somebody is one thing, but that doesn’t make someone an idiot because you don’t agree with them.  Attack the opinions, it serves no good to attack the person;  just a suggestion though. 
KingODuckingham 29/Dec/2006 at 10:50 PM
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Yeah, that would be like thinking they were wrong about everything just because they didn’t like ham and you did.
Alcarináro 29/Dec/2006 at 10:53 PM
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Attack what opinion? The one they won’t share with us? And I used the term ’fool’, not ’idiot’. I believe there is a difference, and I would not have shied from using a term I saw fit. I have outlined why I claim the opinion is extremely foolish, and the belief in such an extremely foolish opinion is what makes a fool.
halfir 29/Dec/2006 at 11:41 PM
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What a pity this absurdity has been dredged up again. Phil_d_one  and Elenhir have the best of it in the comments they make in their posts, and while geordie has creatively offered a solution, there actually is none, as the original -and now apparently repeated claim- is sheer nonsense.

I am reminded - by the protagonists of this absurdity - of Gandalf’s comments on Smeagol/Gollum:

’He was interested in roots and beginnings; he dived into deep pools; he burrowed under trees and growing plants; he tunnelled into green mounds;and he ceased to look up at the hill-tops, or the eaves  on trees, or the flowers opening in the air; his head and eyes were downward.’ {FOTR-The Shadow of the Past- my bold}

With all the glories open to discussion in the creatiive masterpiece that is LOTR why are we even giving consideration to  a taterdemalion proposition such as this? Those promoting it are doing precisely what Gollum did missing the hill-tops, or the eaves  on trees, or the flowers opening in the air searching for a willow-the -wisp of their own misinterpretation. One is reminded of Malvolio’s comment from Twelfth Night

My masters , are you mad? or what are you? .Have you no wit, manners, nor honesty , but to gabble like tinkers...?

Oin 30/Dec/2006 at 12:05 AM
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With all the glories open to discussion in the creatiive masterpiece that is LOTR why are we even giving consideration to  a taterdemalion proposition such as this?

halfir: The reason I (and I suspect others in this thread) am humoring their claims is because it is much easier to claim that someone is misinformed or incorrect when you actually have the information that they claim is false in front of you. In this case, Teleporno and the phantom claim to have knowledge that they exclusively know. If we find out what it is they claim to be the Entwives, it is much easier to demonstrate how ludicrous the answer actually is. It is one thing to state someone is wrong and be done with it; it is quite another to demonstrate how they are wrong using the evidence they claim proves their theory correct.

Personally, I think this is a case of reader applicability at its worst - and on top of that dealing with people who declare a "truth" and then refuse to share the knowledge with anyone else not clever enough - or foolish enough - to find the exact hidden message and interpret it in the same way. But I suspect the proponents of this absurdity will continue to confuse less informed Tolkien fans until they are confronted with the very evidence they claim to exclusively possess and are disproven. Nobody has a monopoly on any truth, and to deny debate about a topic such as this is an exercise in arrogance by those who claim to have discovered it. So for now I will keep searching in the hopes that I will find whatever they claim is the "Entwives", an exercise in pointlessness though it may be.

Ardamir 30/Dec/2006 at 02:25 PM
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Óin:

the phantom is saying that he has found the ’joke’, the word cluster that Teleporno claims to have found. But he is also saying that he has found another piece of evidence, another logical reason to believe that he has found the Entwives – this is different from the word cluster.

You are probably thinking about this passage in Book II:

But here we are not above sixty leagues, I guess, south of the Southfarthing away in your Shire, hundreds of long miles yonder. You are looking now south-west across the north plains of the Riddermark, Rohan the land of the Horse-lords. Ere long we shall come to the mouth of the Limlight that runs down from Fangorn to join the Great River.


So at this point they were tens of leagues north of Ithilien as well.
Túrin 30/Dec/2006 at 02:27 PM
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We can all think what we like of Teleporno and this phantom guy.  They are neither here nor there as far as the Plaza is concerned.  We are all at liberty to see them as intelligent, wise, foolish, etc at our leisure.  However, for the purposes of this thread, let’s just stick to their idea.  Attack it to your heart’s content, I find the ideas horribly misguided myself, but let’s leave the personal comments about Teleporno and phantom out of it, please, they’ve no bearing on anything whatsoever.

Thanks in advance.

Togo Baggins 30/Dec/2006 at 02:40 PM
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i heard it rumored that they left to the Shire... i also remember reading in TTT book that Treebeard said they left because they didn’t like the woods and forests and they like the fields and plains...
Arvellas 30/Dec/2006 at 04:43 PM
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Togo Baggins-Welcome to the Plaza and to the Lore Fora!  Yes, it has been discussed on the Plaza that the Entwives could have gone to the Shire; however, it has been pretty well proven that there were no Ents or Entwives in the Shire, and the "walking tree" one hobbit claimed to have seen was a tall tale, and nothing more.

Oin 30/Dec/2006 at 05:14 PM
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Ardamir: Thanks!  I had been looking for that. I suppose it doesn’t fit in the hypothesis after all - I shall keep looking, if for nothing else than out of curiousity.

Togo: The Entwives were destroyed by Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance:

"What happened to them is not resolved in this book. [...] I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin. They survived only in the ’agriculture’ transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult -- unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don’t know." (Letter #144)

halfir 30/Dec/2006 at 06:43 PM
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Teleporno and phantom - they’ve no bearing on anything whatsoever.QEDX(
outtafitz836 30/Dec/2006 at 07:46 PM
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Yes Togo, welcome to the plaza!!

Anyways, now that i have gotten all of my LoTR stuff back from my mom, I read the chapter that Teleporno and the others always reference "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit", specifically looking for any "clues". I don’t think this dude had any idea what he was talking about. In the passage he looks at, the trees themselves are only mentioned once i believe. and that is only to show the destruction the orcs were already causing, "with trees chopped to die unwontenly and crude eyes carved into the bark". when tolkien speaks of its "dryad lovliness", he is speaking of the garden as a whole.

AND!!!- the definition of dryad is a nymph or diety of the woods. Ents were NEVER considered a diety of any kind and were not nymphs either. the only dryad is Yavanna, and POSSIBLY (but probably not) Radagast the Brown and the other Vala and Maia that were concerned with the woods and beasts.

All right, I am finished now....

Kirinki54 31/Dec/2006 at 03:40 AM
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You will find that of the many trees, bushes, herbs etc mentioned by Tolkien in Ithilien, most of them are associated with cooking or other domestic chores. This obviously points towards a female influence and thus this is likely the missing clue. The Ent-wifes turned into parsley and olives in Ithilien. It should now be possible even for the most doubtful to see the light. And oh, when you see them, send them my way. Could use a little help in the garden.

Ardamir 31/Dec/2006 at 05:35 AM
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For me it is very likely that the Entwives were or had been in Ithilien - I have just not typed down my thoughts about why I think so yet - but Teleporno’s and the phantom’s ’joke’, and the other piece of evidence the phantom claims to have found, seem to be different from this, and which I am very interested in hearing more about.

halfir 31/Dec/2006 at 04:56 PM
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Then you must be an audience of one!X(
Magradhaid 01/Jan/2007 at 05:35 PM
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I wish the phantom had clarified about the ’action’ that doesn’t make sense! Is this an action by a character, or by an inanimate object? At any rate, I should probably re-read FotR (it’s been very long since I read the book) in order to get a better idea of what is ’inconsistent’. And I read every paragraph in Letters that referred to women or the Entwives, but couldn’t find much. I’ll have to borrow the Carpenter bio; I know the part about Treebeard’s voice being inspired by that of C.S. Lewis, but nothing about women.

Though it seems Teleporno might have based his idea of a ’hidden joke’ on the line of the rejected Epilogue in SD which runs: "Ents are very secret, and they do not like people much, big or little. I should like the Entwives to be found, too; but I am afraid that trouble is too old and deep for Shire-folk to mend. I think, maybe, Entwives do not want to be found; and maybe Ents are now tired of looking." [emphasis mine]

Ardamir 01/Jan/2007 at 07:42 PM
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I do not suppose that this is the ’tiny little action’ in the second half of TTT that is inconsistent with something that happens in the second half of FOTR and information we know from FOTR and TTT?

TTT, Book II, ’Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit’:

Sam, eager to see more, went now and joined the guards. He scrambled a little way up into one of the larger of the bay-trees.


FOTR, Book II, ’Lothlórien’:

Legolas at once went down the ladder to take Haldir’s message; and soon afterwards Merry and Pippin clambered up on to the high flet. They were out of breath and seemed rather scared. ... Hobbits do not like heights, and do not sleep upstairs, even when they have any stairs.


FOTR, Prologue:

The craft of building may have come from Elves or Men, but the Hobbits used it in their own fashion. They did not go in for towers. Their houses were usually long, low, and comfortable.