Silvans = Moriquendi?

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Reikon Suchi-ru 02/Jan/2007 at 08:56 AM
Interrogator of Mordor Points: 13828 Posts: 13959 Joined: 11/Dec/2002
Alright, this has been a question of mine for a while now. I’ve since checked the archives, and my books (mostly Silmarillion) to find if the Silvan Elves are considered to be Moriquendi, or ’Dark Elves’. I first start with the definition of Moriquendi:

"Those Elves the Calaquendi call the Umanyar, since they came never to the land of Aman and the Blessed Realm; but the Umanyar and the Avari alike they call the Moriquendi, Elves of the Darkness, for they never beheld the Light that was before the Sun and Moon." (The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves)

So I then sought to find if the Silvans were considered to have never seen the light of the Two Trees, and I came upon the Sundering of the Elves tree in the back of the Silmarillion, which lists the following under Moriquendi:

"- The Avari
- Teleri that remained in Beleriand: Sindar (Grey-elves)
- Those that left the march of the Teleri east of the Misty Mountains:
     - Nandor (of whom some after-wards entered Beleriand):
          - Laiquendi (Green-elves of Ossiriand)" (The Silmarillion, Sundering of the Elves)

With that in mind, I sought to find the origins of the Silvan Elves:

"Silvan Elves     Also called Woodland Elves. They appear to have been in origin those Nandorin Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains, but remained in the Vale of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great..." (The Silmarillion, index of the Houghton Mifflin Second Edition, 2001)

So I sought to find if the Silvans were, indeed, the Nandorin Elves mentioned...

"Others of the Eldar there were who crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in that age and passed into the inner lands. Many of these were Teleri, survivors of Doriath and Ossiriand; and they established realms among the Silvan Elves in woods and mountains far from the sea...Only in Eregion, which Men called Hollin, did Elves of Noldorin race establish a lasting realm beyond the Ered Luin." (The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)

This leads me to believe that the Silvan Elves were NOT of Noldorin descent, but simply ended up intermingling their race with the Noldorins that settled where Silvan Elves already existed. So basically what I’m look for here is a definitive stance that shows whether or not the Silvans were Moriquendi.
KingODuckingham 02/Jan/2007 at 09:14 AM
Grey Counsellor of Isengard Points: 15053 Posts: 15390 Joined: 27/Aug/2006
I don’t have my books, but I think I can fairly assure you they are Moriquendi.

they appear to have been in origin those Nandorin Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains, but remained in the Vale of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great..

How is this not definitive?
Reikon Suchi-ru 02/Jan/2007 at 09:21 AM
Interrogator of Mordor Points: 13828 Posts: 13959 Joined: 11/Dec/2002
Because in the quote I provided after that, it says "and they established realms among the Silvan Elves in woods and mountains far from the sea" which seems to imply they’re seperate. Once I can find a definitive quote, I will end my search, but for now, the search continues!
KingODuckingham 02/Jan/2007 at 09:22 AM
Grey Counsellor of Isengard Points: 15053 Posts: 15390 Joined: 27/Aug/2006
Tyrhael has got it I think...
Magradhaid 02/Jan/2007 at 09:22 AM
Imp of Umbar Points: 7957 Posts: 8204 Joined: 13/Sep/2008

>This leads me to believe that the Silvan Elves were NOT of Noldorin descent
Of course they weren’t! They were of Nandorin descent. For sources, try re-reading the first part of your own post.

Anyway, my copy of UT has for Silvan Elves "Nandorin Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains but remained in the Vale of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great." So they were Elves of Nandorin descent east of the Misty Mountains, and eventually mixed with the Ñoldor who later came from west of the Blue Mountains. I think you’re mixing up Nandor and Ñoldor.

Reikon Suchi-ru 02/Jan/2007 at 09:23 AM
Interrogator of Mordor Points: 13828 Posts: 13959 Joined: 11/Dec/2002
Perhaps you’re right. So they’re of Nandorin descent, and ARE Moriquendi?
Magradhaid 02/Jan/2007 at 09:25 AM
Imp of Umbar Points: 7957 Posts: 8204 Joined: 13/Sep/2008

Yes, they are therefore Moriquendi.

Reikon Suchi-ru 02/Jan/2007 at 09:29 AM
Interrogator of Mordor Points: 13828 Posts: 13959 Joined: 11/Dec/2002
No wait, I wasn’t confusing them! Nandor was who they were descended from, and Noldor was who they eventually mixed with. What I was trying to point out with my post was that Silvans were implied as already existing, independent of the Noldor, but I failed to realize that, even still, they were Nandor and were, therefore, Moriquendi. A bit confusing, yes, but I think I’ve got it now!
Galin 02/Jan/2007 at 09:54 AM
New Soul Points: 3638 Posts: 1945 Joined: 28/Jan/2005

From Quendi And Eldar (this might help?)...

’Nandor. This name must have been made at the time, in the latter days of the March, when certain groups of the Teleri gave up the March; and it was especially applied to the large following of Lenwe who refused to cross the Hithaeglir. The name was often interpreted as ’Those who go back’; but in fact none of the Nandor appear to have returned, or to have joined the Avari. Many remained and settled in lands that they had reached, especially beside the River Anduin; some turned aside and wandered southwards’ JRRT