Orome`s Origins -- The Later Annals of Valinor

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Rohanya 18/Nov/2005 at 03:24 AM
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The book mentioned in the subject area has a most interesting line, re Orome. `Orome was born of Yavanna, who is after named, but he is not Aule`s son.` So in this early history of the Powers, written in the 1930s it would seem, female Powers have the ability to produce children by their own volition. (ie., nothing more required)

Or am I misreading this?

Whether or not the Master`s views changed later on is not the focus here. Taken by itself, how is it to be read?
Lori 18/Nov/2005 at 07:40 AM
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I actually understood it a bit differently: that Yavanna had born Orome just of other Valar
We also should not forget that for instance in the Greek mythology Zeus born Athena out of his head. Tolkien at first referred to the Valar as the Gods, so may be he meant this.
Rohanya 18/Nov/2005 at 07:58 AM
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Loriwaynen, okay, then any guesses as to the Lucky Male Valar?  Ulmo? I should think not. Melkor? Most definitely not! Manwe -- I doubt it. The list of candidates grows thin. I suppose that conception, prior to entering the World, would be an impossibility. I wonder if Master Tolkien came up with this notion to emphasize Yavanna’s fecundity, even though she is not included in The Nine Gods. Any thoughts?

Lori 18/Nov/2005 at 08:08 AM
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Rohanya, Tolkien states there were many spirits that in Arda came to be known as the Valar. The whole lot of them didn’t want to enter Arda and linger there until the world is remade.
and may be I misunderstood you, but Yavanna was included in the Nine Gods: "Among [the Valar] Nine were of chief power and reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda...: Manwë, Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna, Aulë, Mandos, Nienna and Oromë..." (Valaquenta)
Rohanya 18/Nov/2005 at 08:13 AM
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Loriwaynen, I am trying to stick to The Annals Of Valinor here. However, in this case, it would have to be in conjunction with the Quenta Silmarillion, of about the same time: ’The chieftains of the Valar were nine....their names among Men are manifold: Manwe and Melko, Ulmo, Aule, Mandos, Lorien, Tulkas, Osse, and Orome.’

Just to clarify.
Túrin 18/Nov/2005 at 10:22 AM
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I had never seen this before, and so I was rather intriuged and dod some searching.  After finding the passage you quoted, I was looking about and stumbled on this a little bit down the page:

"The opening of AV 2 was long after extensivly changed and rewritten; but one alteration in the present passage looks as if it were made during the earlier time.  The sentance ’and Orome was born of Yavanna, who is after named, but he is not Aule’s son’ was changed to the notable statement;

and Orome was the offspring of YAvanna, who is after named, but not as the Children of the Gods born in this world, for he came of her thought ere the world was made.

(HoMe V: The Lost Road, Later Annals of Valinor, commentary, my bold emphasis)

I was doing some searching for the passage in The Earliest Annals of Valinor and I did indeed find what this passage is referencing and said to be a modification of, but there is not much more to be revealed from that, sadly.  At most this interesting bit:

"Of course it is altogether unclear what is really meant by the terms ’brother’, ’sister’, ’mother’, ’son’, ’children’ in the context of the great Valar." (HoMe IV: Shaping of Middle-earth, Earliest Annals of Valinor, Commentary on Annals of Valinor)

That doesn’t say all that much (at this time), it’s just an interesting note to keep around in the back of your head when you talk about the relations of the Valar - the relational words might not mean the same thing they typically do.

Rohanya 18/Nov/2005 at 10:30 AM
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Turin, and very important result re that searching around of yours! So, it was prior to the world and by thought? I got the former wrong, the latter right. Yes, I agree -- it is difficult to make ordinary sense of these family connections.

But yes well done!

Loriwaynen, it is nice, for a change, to see the male entity coming out of the female head, and not vice-versa, as the Greeks opted for, oh-warlike-them.

Lori 18/Nov/2005 at 11:40 AM
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*stares at Turin’s piece of research* 

Rohanya, I agree that it is nice *g*. But unfortunately, it happens once in a million cases... I believe even the ancient Greeks were more humane that our moden society, though (however war-like they were)

Bearamir 18/Nov/2005 at 12:05 PM
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Not only did Athena spring full grown from her father’s head, so  (in some stories), did the Egyptian Neteru (goddess) Hrt-Hrw (Hathor).   So, I wouldn’t say that just the Greeks had this propensity...

In any event, Ladies & Gentlemen, an excellent thread.  Please accept my compliments (and a small tribute) for your efforts...(as well as a small relocation!)


Taro Grimfyr 24/Nov/2005 at 08:00 PM
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Zeus did not have Athena by himself. He was told that his son would overthrow him, so when his first wife, Metis, became pregnant, he swallowed her. Athena was born from Metis and then in turn was ejected out of Zeus’ head with the help of Hephaestus. Zeus also gave birth to Dionysus the Wine God because he was tricked into killing the mortal mother, and he sewed Dionysus into his thigh. The only asexual reproduction that I can think of in Greek Mythology is Hephaestus. Hera became mad at Zeus and had a child by herself, but it didn’t work out so well and Hephaestus was lame in his legs. This story of asexual reproduction isn’t universal, I think some stories have him becoming lame in the Titanomachy.

I’m not sure if Tolkien meant that Yavanna gave birth asexually like you orignially wondered, but I just thought it would be good to clear up asexual reproduction in another culture’s mythology.
Finrod021 14/Dec/2005 at 02:57 AM
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Could it be that `Orome was born of Yavanna, who is after named, but he is not Aule`s son.` just means that Aule did not consider Orome his son because they didn’t like the same things.
Lady d`Ecthelion 23/Dec/2005 at 07:29 AM
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What intrigues me, is that the Valar took shape only after they had entered Arda.

Then, if Orome, as per those early ideas in Master T.’s writngs, sprung from the thought of Yavanna, he:

1/ was not created by Eru >> yet he did become one of the Lords of all the Ainur that entered the "sung world". And he himself did not obviously participate in the Great Music, which created Arda. Strange! ;

2/ he could not have a material shape right from the beginning, because his mother did not have such a shape when she "gave birth" to him;

3/ the very fact that a ’thought’ (of Yavanna’s) could "produce" another being - obviously one of the same character - a spirit, that is, brings the question : "How?"

4/ "Why? was he created?" - is yet another question related to this intriguing case.    

What do you think?

Of course, these ideas changed very strongly afterwards!
Rohanya 23/Dec/2005 at 07:40 AM
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Aldoriana, this thread was initiated by me but I am fresh out of ideas.  However, I may as well give it `the old school try.` Yavanna is in some sense The Earth Mother, is she not? In traditional religion that was a being of great importance, perhaps the most important deity. I wonder, therefore, if the old notion of the fecundity of the earth is not slipping in here, though pushed slightly in the direction of the more Greek, male notion, which regarded creation as akin to thought.

You can carry this thread for a while, if you wish!

Bearamir 06/Jan/2006 at 09:36 PM
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Ladies & Gentlemen:  The purpose of Ad Lore is the in depth discussion of a topic...it is not intended to be simply the opportunity to garner 2 points by posting a few lines of barely germane commentary.  For the most part, contributors to this thread *have* shown great expertise in their posts....but I will say that there were a few overly "fluffly" posts, however...so I have edited this thread to remove those posts that were not consistent with the spirit of this forum. 

Moving forward, for those new contributors who wish to participate in this discussion, *please* consider well what you contribute....I truly do not want to have to delete any more posts in this thread.  

Peeeg 12/Jan/2006 at 11:06 PM
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I gots no daddy