Language Help Desk 45 |
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 Topic: Language Help Desk 45
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Tyrhael ~ I was wondering if you could answer a question I’ve had for some time now. I know that Tolkien did not develop the language of men (Adunaic) to the extent he did Quenya or Sindarin, but would you know where I could find out more about it? As I recall there used to be a short "dictionary" of all known Adunaic terms on the Gondor site, but I can no longer find it. To be true to my character, I would like to learn as much Adunaic as is possible in addition to brushing up on Sindarin (since I don’t recall Tolkien doing much in Westron). I would appreciate any insight that you have.
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Thank you Tyrhael!
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*wanders in and blushes shyly* Hi... not sure if this is the right thread for this... I was originally going to post it in translation, but I realised halfway though that it wasn’t a translation point, it was a grammar point, so here I am... I was wondering... is the situation in Quenya like to the one in Sindarin with no explicit word for "to be"? I ask because I was attempting to translate the phrases Don’t fear, love. All will be well. for something I was writing, and got as far as Alcaure, melme. Ilye... and then I was stuck. Because I don’t know the future tense of "to be", or even if there is one. Is there some sort of prefix that can be stuck onto well (as in good) so that it becomes the future tense of the verb? |
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Don’t worry about the "right thread"; this is fine. There is a verb ’to be’ in Quenya; the future tense is nauva. However, with your translation, "Don’t fear" needs to be an imperative (i.e. a ’command’ form), and caurë is a Qenya noun rather than a verb. I’d suggest Áva rucë "Don’t fear", with the negative command particle-thingy áva in front of the verb rucë "feel fear or horror". Also, melmë is "love" in the sense of the abstract emotion. "Love" as in a person would be melindo "lover (masc.)" or melissë "lover (fem.), or meldë "friend (fem.)" or meldo "friend (masc.)". And "well" as an adverb, i.e. "Well met" or a verb done "well" would be mai. For "good" there is mára "useful, fit, good (of things)" and mánë "morally good". And I think "all" as a noun would simply be ilya, though there’s illi in later sources. |
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Thank-you, Tyrhael! Well, I did do a stint of learning Quenya a few years ago and didn’t get past lesson 20 (there just wasn’t enough time) and then a little while later I picked up Sindarin and ran with it, so I know more Sindarin than I do Quenya... so I do know enough to translate the little phrases that everyone wants you to say when they find out you "speak" quote on quote an Elven language, but that’s about it. I have an Elven-Quenya dictionary and I’ve downloaded Dragon Flame, plus started reading over Thorsten Renk’s Sindarin course, and they’ve helped me immensely on more than one occasion. I use the books, as well as some stuff from Fellowship of the Wordsmiths (Namely, the Linguistic Soundtrack Textbook and the Linguistic Dialogue Textbook) the latter being one of my own complilations from the info on the site. There, more information than you wanted, right? Sorry. I guess therein lies my problem, because I just translate the words without having any idea of the meaning... I should pay closer attention to the dictionary - I should have seen that wasn’t a noun... ah well... Thanks again!! |
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Tyrhael - Hello again! I was wondering if Thorsten Renk's Quenya course is a reliable guide. I know that some words and grammar structures are his own reconstructions, but how reliable is this guide as a grammar lesson and a vocabulary reference, and how accurate are his reconstructions? I have read through it twice now and have found it very easy to understand. I have found that memorizing the vocabulary is much harder than remembering syntax. It seems to be a relatively easy course for this high school student! Thanks again!
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I would say that it is reliable (I just read through it a couple days ago), though there a few (minor) things that need to be updated, like that núro is a misreading for "servant" rather than "sunset". I'd recommend it over the Ardalambion course, though, in terms of accuracy and user-friendliness. As for specific points of your post:1) grammar: It does pretty well,since he uses the technique of coloring hypothetical or sketchy stuff grey.
2) vocabulary: He uses a couple Qenya words mixed in there where Quenya words could be used, e.g. furin. However, I would definitely recommend it. If you have any questions about Quenya in the future you can ask them here. And I'd recommend seeing the articles about Quenya on his page Parma Tyelpelassiva in addition to using the course.  |
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There’s one aspect of Quenya and Sindarin pronunciation that I am confused about and don’t know where to look. Is there any information on which syllable(s) should be stressed in Sindarin and Quenya words? It’s relatively clear in poetry with meter, but is there any pattern that would tell me how to pronounce a single word or name out of context (assuming it wasn’t in the sound archive)? Would it make any difference whether the word or name is a compound word? Also, does the acute accent indicate stress, or does it show something different such as a long vowel? I know that the circumflex accent indicates a long vowel in the Elvish languages, but does it indicate stress as well? I would be grateful for any assistance. |
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This information can be found in Appendix E of LotR if you have it. Basically, in Quenya and Sindarin the acute accent indicates a long vowel, and in Quenya it also signifies a change in the tone quality of the vowel; it makes it higher and tenser. As for stress, it is sometimes used in Quenya to indicate stress, like in Mindon Eldaliéva (where the normal stress would be Eldalieva if the accent weren't there) and Elentári. For a guide on Sindarin pronunciation (and stress), I would recommend Ardhon Ellammath. Please ask if there're any more questions you have.
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Regarding e, o, yes. I don't believe this is true for a, i, u (i.e. I am not aware of any suggestion given by Tolkien).
What makes you think so? It is of course true that these vowels are stressed, but this only due to their length... In primitive forms of Common Eldarin or Primitive Quendian Tolkien did use the more normal linguistic notation with accute accent for stress and macron for length, but I don't think he ever did so for Quenya, Sindarin, Telerin etc. (although there are some examples of length marked by macron). |
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He did sometimes, e.g. in Rgeo, where the metre of Namárie is discussed and thus both length and accent marks are of importance. There, Élentā΄ri has both a macron indicating length and an acute indicating stress over the 'a'. |
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Déjà vu ... Looking back, I think that's the second time you've corrected me on that exact point, Lothenon. I waited a day to see if anyone would respond, and since no one did, I figured I'd put forth what I thought might be correct in the hopes someone would notice it and confirm/deny it. Hopefully it won't take a third time to stick in ...
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Aranhael et al., note that with HTML character 769 you should be able to land the acute accent even above a macron:
[ b ] E l e n t & # 2 5 7 ; & # 7 6 9 ; r i [ / b ] -> Elentā́ri |
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Hello, I just started learning Elvish and was hoping that someone could check my work.
I started with the task that everyone starts with: getting an Elvish name. I started with my own name (Kevin) and then moved onto my wife and daughter's names (Rochelle and Hayley). For each of us I tried to write the English name in Tengwar (various modes, as you'll see) and then tried to find a suitable Elvish translation. I got a little lost along the way so I don't know if the names I picked were Quenya or Sindarin. I put my choices and ultimate selections here in this PDF file: Hopefully people can read it. I labeled my Tengwar choices as green and translation choices as yellow. Other unused options are white. The main things I ask that you check are: - Do the translations I picked mean what I think they mean? - Is there a better choice from the ones I have listed (or your own)? - For the Tengwar "Rochelle" I modified it to make the last "e" silent. Is that OK? - For the Tengwar "Hayley" I had lots of problems understanding the proper use of the "Y". You'll see that my final selection took some artistic license. Did what I did make sense, or am I off in the weeds? Thank you so much. |
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Hello Ikcor,
Your transcriptions into Tengwar are mostly well done. I only disagree in a few points: • the "original" transcription of "Hayley" uses yanta, which AFAIK is never found for English y. • the "original" transcription of "Hayley" in Quenya-spelling does not make very much sense (anna plus y-tehta is never used in this way) • the "modified" transcription of "Hayley" in Quenya-spelling in fact reads hyalye. • I generally don't agree with the transcription of English names into Quenya spelling in an orthographic way. If you do want to write it in an Elvish mode I would spell it in an Elvish way that represents the original pronunciation as far as possible (i.e. kevin, heili, rohyel). The greatest problem with "Rochelle" is the pronunciation of the ch. I guess it is pronounced like sh (which does not exist in Elvish)? In this case it is plainly up to you whether you like a rather phonetic or rather orthographic spelling, thus whether you write roshel or really rochelle (though I guess Tolkien might in fact have written roshelle). But you prefer the Elvish translations nevertheless, as it seems, so my two cents: "Kevin", as far as I know, derives from Irish Ceomhín or something similar in spelling and consists of "kind, gentle, handsome" (as you write) and "birth". Sindarin Beinion would rather mean "Scion of the Handsome". I believe you might combine bain (in the form of bein-, yes) with onnen ("born, the Born One", attested in plural Ebœnnyn, "the Afterborn") or maybe nûn (attested in gwanûn, "twin-born", though I'm not sure where the first n comes from), thus: Beinonnen or Beinûn. I'm not sure if I understand Quenya Minyanosto, Vanyanosto, what does the osto stand for? (I only know it as "fortress, city" or something of the like). The Quenya counterpart of both Sindarin onnen, nûn is nóna (cf. apanóna, "afterborn", onóna, "twin-born"), thus maybe: Minyanóno, Vanyanóno. I did not find a translation of "Hayley" as something related to "hero", but only "hey clearing" (from Anglosaxon heg leah), originally a place-name... Concerning "Rochelle" I found two possibilities: Either the one you used, "little rock" (from a place-name in France), or a female Romance form of Germanic hrok (meaning "rest"). Your Sindarin first version lacks some mutations and assimilation (gond tithen > gond dithen > gondithen) and I don't see where the double-n derives from (and I don't know the suffixes/compound words you used on the other two). I would possibly just use a diminutive suffix on "rock", thus: Gondeg, Gœndig (more modern Gonneg, Gennig), or just the Sindarin word for a small stone to which it is easier to apply female suffixes (if you would like to have one, since in the original form there is a very clear one), thus: Sarneth, Sarnel. The Sindarin forms of "rest" are îdh, post and may be suffixed with the same endings (the first becoming ídh). Your Quenya form seems to come from titta ondo and a sort of a female ending? Seems good to me, though I have never seen the ending. Here also you might simply use the word for "rock" with diminutive ending, thus: Ondinkë (though this ending is only attested on words without final vowels...), which would already represent a female form, ending in -ë. |
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Lothenon,
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply! All of my "original" Tengwar transcriptions just came from the "online" version linked to from so many sites: http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/ott/start.php I just entered the English names using "english" mode. I could tell that the Tengwar for "Hayley" was probably incorrect, but I couldn't figure out the best way. I also did try many phonetic versions, but soon got in over my head, so I'm grateful for your suggestion of Heili. Just of the sake of curiosity, I wonder if you, or anyone, has any suggestion for an orthographic transcription of "Hayley." Perhaps it's just too non-Elvish a word. I might use the Mode of Beleriand, but I think I like Heili. On the subject of "Hayley," you are correct the the English origin is "hay meadow" but the Norse translation, from Haela, means hero. Considering all that she went through just to be born, she is our little hero. I preferred Thalionwen over Calloniel because it seemed that Thalionwen was more heroic through action and Calloniel was heroic through title. Thoughts? Thanks again! p.s. I got the translations for "Kevin" from the Coucnil of Elrond Quenya Name Finder: http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Semantics&file=index&options=SemanticsMenu&volume=5 |
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This question has probably been asked before, but it has been bugging me lately.
How exactly are you supposed to pronounce Cirdan? most times it is spelled with an accent over the "i" but I don;t know if its a long "I" like in find or if it sounds like the "i" in the word "fin" Anyone know for sure? |
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Remembering that I am the guy who can't even spell his own name without help...
My understanding is that both i and í are pronounced as short vowels, but í just lasts longer (as opposed to the long vowel sound). i.e. Keer-don or Keeer-don. but never Kire-don. http://tolklang.quettar.org/pronmid/pronguide.html http://www.ellammath.de/pronunciation.htm |
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In what mode?
That's a nice point then. Nevertheless your version are (I dare say) impossible, since you put a female agental ending onto a male one. I would rather suggest replacing -on by a female suffix, thus: Cal(l)eth, Cellil, Celiel Calwen, Thalieth, Thaliel, Thalwen. Concerning pronunciation of i, í, Círdan: The vowels i is always to be pronounced as in English "machine" (that is Tolkien's own example), or as in "we", "seize" or whatever way there might exist in English to transcribe this sound. But this discription is only concerning the vowel quality, not the length. That means that i with an accent above is to be pronounced exactly as in "machine", while i without accent is the same sound but only as short as the vowel in "fit" (if you listen carefully you'll hear that the vowels in "fit" and "machine" have a different quality, the first is more "open"). The most correct representation of Círdan's name certainly is that with the long vowel (since "ship(s)" is cîr, not cir) and the pronunciation is in English orthography possibly best represented as keer-dahn (where "ah" represents the sound of a in "father", but also shorter. This is always the case in Sindarin, all vowels exist in long and short forms but the sound itself is never changed by that). |
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At this point I'd settle for any! :) Quenya mode would be preferred. I was looking closer at the English transcription mode and it still wasn't clear. The rules for diphthongs (ay, ai, ey) have few examples. Likewise, the rules for (English) "Y" were also a bit vague. There seemed to be many options and it all boiled down to personal choice. Thanks again for the corrected translations of "hero." |
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EDIT: O god, wait a second, what was I thinking about? Sheesh, this is of course the oposite of what you asked for...(phonetic transcription into Elvish modes)... The normal rather orthographic spelling of English would use anna for y and place the tehtar for a, e above them. |
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No worries, Lothenon. You've been most helpful! Thanks so much.
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Can someone tell me more about the Men of Dale, and what they spoke. I have heard before that they spoke Westron and other times I have heard that they spoke their own type of dialect. Also what did Tolkien use as a model for their language, or did he not use a model and left it undeveloped like Dwarvish and such. At the top of the page it is said it is from Norse.... Could someone elaborate this for me? |
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I'm not sure whether the Men of Dale (the Bardings) spoke Westron or a related dialect (like the Hobbits spoke a dialect of Westron, though it was still understandable by other Westron users). But as for their names, Tolkien wrote "The language of Dale and the Long Lake would, if it appeared, be represented as more or less Scandinavian in character; but it is only represented by a few names, especially those of the Dwarves that came from that region. These are all Old Norse Dwarf-names" in Letters.
However, the Scandinavian aspect and use of Old Norse for their names was only considered to be an external translation of their real language and names, just like Mercian Old English was used as a translation of the actual language of Rohan. For example, the Dalish name for the dragon Smaug was actually Trâgu in their language, which is represented by "Smaug" in Tolkien's "translation" of the Red Book of Westmarch — just like Tolkien used "Sméagol" to represent the name "Trahald" in the northern language of the Mannish language from near the Gladden. But at any case the languages or dialects of the Hobbits, of the Riddermark, and of Dale seem to be somewhat related, as the stem *trag- / *trah- means "to squeeze through a hole" in both (which was represented by derivatives of the primitive Germanic verb smugan in Tolkien's English translation of the Red Book). At any rate, the languages of Dale, of Rohan, and of certain Northern Mannish elements in the Shire dialect were related (probably from their time of coexistence in the Vales of Anduin), though perhaps only bits and pieces of those occurred in Westron, which was a language evolved from the Marachian dialect of Adûnaic (the common tongue of Númenor) and influenced by Sindarin. I guess this because when Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas (with Gandalf) went to Rohan, they couldn't understand the language of that country, though they knew Westron. Perhaps they were still related, since Tolkien used Germanic languages to represent their languages (Mercian Old English for Rohanese, English for Westron, dialectal English for the Shire's rustic dialect of Westron, formal English for Gondor's archaic Westron, Old Norse for Dale, Gothic for the ancestors of the Rohirrim and the Northmen). But that doesn't answer whether they were separate languages or dialects — the Hobbits wouldn't be able to understand Rohanese, though their languages shared cognates. |
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Does anyone know of either a good writing program for windows, a good dictionary that one can learn oneself with, or lastly is it possible to get tutored in elvish by one who knows it fluently? i would like to do all of these things, but will settle for what i can get. and i am not computer savvy.
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"Love seeketh not itself to please,
Nor for itself hath any care, But for another gives its ease, And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair." -William Blake |
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Elenaro — for Quenya dictionaries/wordlists, look here. For a Sindarin wordlist, look here. For courses and articles, look here. For pronunciation guides, look here. For more good sites related to Elvish, look here and here. For articles on the philosophy of learning Elvish languages, look here, here, and here.
What you probably have to decide first is what elvish language you want to learn. I'm going to move this post to the Language Help Desk where it would be more suitable than in Elvish News. |
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I didn't think this really merited it's own topic, so I hope it's alright to post it in here. In the 'Notes on Pronunciation' in the CoH it says that "E at the end of words is always pronounced as a distinct vowel, and in this position is written ë" ... am I right in thinking that applying it to the name Oromë, it means the word has three syllables when spoken? |
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Yes, you are correct. In this case, Oromë, being a Quenya word, is three syllables, with a trilled R, E as in "bed", and O as in "for". There's a clip of Tolkien himself pronouncing Oromë, but we can tell he's not a native Elvish speaker, as he pronounces Valar with æ as in "cat", which he specifically says not to do in his guides to Elvish pronunciation.
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Fantastic, thanks so much for your help Tyrhael!
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I would appreciate if someone who understands these things could tell me what is the meaning of the name Celegorm (I came up with "silver circle", since Cormallen means "golden circle"). Also, I'm thinking of changing the name of my characters' father, which is Celebgir (it should mean "silver ship"), because I don't think b and g sound that good when pronounced one after another, and also because there is no example of g after b in any of the elven names from LotR and Silmarillion. So if you could give me an alternative for a name meaning "silver ship" I would be most grateful (I used the words "celeb" and "cir"). Thanks.
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Lindir Celebgirion, Celegorm is an adaptation of Quenya Tyelcormo "hasty-riser" into Sindarin phonology. It could also be analyzed as containing celeg "swift, agile" (compare Q. tyelca) and gormh / gorf "impetus, vigour" (cognate to Q. ormë "haste, violence, wrath"). It's actually a North Sindarin name — the West Sindarin form would be Celegorf (VT41:10). It was given to him "Possibly in reference
to his quick temper, and his habit of leaping up when suddenly angered" (PM).
As for "silver ship", if you don't mind using "grey", there's mith, mithren, and thin(n) — you could have Cirmith, Cirvith, Mithrengir, Thingir, Cirthin(n), etc. Though I'm not sure about the role of cair "ship" in compounds. If you want to stick with celeb, there's Cirgeleb. |
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I was wondering if someone could help me with this...
I'm writing the screenplay for a home movie (based on Middle Earth) I'm directing, and at one point a character is cursing their enemy (in Sindarin) It took forever, but I finally came up with something vaguely similar to what I wanted. It reads: ...They have voices of their own and shall not be silenced by a few (and then in Sindarin) Um naith dol. Tolo dangen, morn lyg o coth! Ava brona! Eil tim fir naur gwann o Fangorn! Hul! And the caption will be: Evil spearpoint heads! Come [be] slain, black snake of enmity! [You] will not survive! It is raining sparks and [you will] die [in the] fire, O dead of Fangorn! (Battle cry) I couldn't find Sindarin words for the ones in [ ]. The character who is cursing their enemy is an elf lord, and I don't think this phrase does him justice. Please help! |
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Wow, I was totally wrong considering Celegorm, so thanks for clearing that up for me Tyrhael. I was surprised to read that there is a difference between North Sindarin and West Sindarin. I wasn't aware there is more than one Sindarin form. Your suggestions for the name are all good, and grey instead of silver sounds good for me (I liked Thingir the most), but just in case that I decide to keep the name as it is, would that be wrong?
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Eugenides: naith is rather a spear-shaped formation; I would use ecthel pl. *ecthili. If you mean heads of the spearpoints, it's redundant and you can just use *ecthili. The adjective um goes after the noun, and is pluralized as ym. Dôl would be pluralized as dýl. I would add no "be (imperative)", and morn goes after lýg, and is lenited to vorn. "Of enmity" would use en "of" and be mutated to en-goth. "Sparks" is rather tint, and "you will die" is gwannatha, "within the fire" would be ne naur. I think "dead" would be pluralized as gwainn, and hul is hûl.
So Ecthili ym! Tolo no dangen, lýg vorn en-goth! Ava brona! Eil tint a gwannatha ne naur, gwainn o Fangorn! Hûl! |
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Thanks, Tyrhael. That should help a lot!
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A few days ago, I was looking up the colors in elvish and was surprised to find no word for pink (I used the dictionary you suggested I download). So, is that true? Is there really no elvish word for the color "pink"? |
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I just wanted to ask which of the Quenya courses referred to above is the most accurate and easiest to understand? I am interested in trying to learn Quenya, but I want to be sure that I am learning the language as Tolkien actually formulated it, or at least as closely as possible.
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Sorry I haven't been around.
Aranel, as far as I know, there's no published/attested word for "pink" in later Quenya, though there is one in the Qenya Lexicon from the 1920s (though I don't have that so I can't find out what the word is).  Taurëllo, the course I would recommend is Thorsten Renk's Quetin i Lambë Eldaiva on his site Parma Tyelpelassiva. You'll find the downloadable course there, as well as some useful articles. If you ever have any questions about the course, want to discuss or clarify something, etc. you can ask it in this forum.  |
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Actually, the quote from the Qenya Lexicon refers back to the Gnomish Lexicon: crintha (cp. carn.) "rosy, pink"; crinthammos [<< crinthambos], "red breast, robin" (PE#11:27). |
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Thanks, Aelindis!
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Tyrhael: Thanks! Im going to check out the site now.
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Has anyone found anything of importance(concerning languages of Middle Earth) in Children Of Hurin? As far as know, it has no 'new' linguistic information, but I could have missed something.
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Harlindon: Not that I know of — and I was rather hoping that an English prose line equivalent to the Túrin wrapper would show up. But Elfling 34064 and 34065 might answer your questions. ;)
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I made up these (almost)Poems and tried to put it in elvish but i'm sure that i did not get it right.
I Hear the singing of the ravines, the woods. Pools shine in the moonlight, it feel as if the starry host, all the stars of heaven are raining down. The Beautiful voices of the Elven folk lifted in song, dreaming of the sea wind. Hear i glired of i ress, i eryn. lin (s)sila in lthil light. It feels as if elenath are eliad dad. I bein voices of i Edhel folk lifted or in glinn, dreaming of i gaear gwaew. pleas help me out! |
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Poem 2
The harper plays the harp, as the wispy voices of the Elven folk lifted in song. The woods echo East, West, North, South with the song of the starry host. The wind battles the gray mist above the pool. Under the crescent moon, starlight streams in the window of the lone tower to caress the dreamer. One voice rises above the glorious song. A song like copper-colored bells above the sea, floating in harmony with the land. I talagand gannado, as i wispy voices of i Edhel folk lifted in glinn. I eryn echo Amrun, Annun forod, harad with i glinn (s) of i elenath. I gwaew dagro i hith or ael. No i curan, gil (Light) streems in i henneth of i lone mindon to caress i dreamer. Min voice rises or i glorious glinn. A glinn like gaer nell (s) or i gaear, loda (ing) in harmoney with i dor. Thank you for any help you can give! |
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Poem #1:
- - - - - I hear the singing of the ravines, the woods. Hear i glired of i ress, i eryn. The closest to "hear" we have are lasto "listen", lathro / lathrado "listen in, eavesdrop". Since lathron from lathro is glossed "hearer, listener, eavesdropper", we may simply use lathro for "hear", which is from a stem LAS. Or, in the Quenya poem Markirya, we find a verb #hlar- "hear" from S-LAS, which is a variant stem. Since we have lasto "listen" from LAS but lhaw "ears (dual)" from S-LAS both in LotR, it's safe to say that both stems coexisted at once. If you wanted to reconstruct a verb for "hear" from Quenya #hlar-, you'd get Sindarin *lhas-, but in all likelihood a suffix would have to be added to make *lhasta-. But it's probably easier just to use *lathro. This would make lathron "I hear". Gliri is "to sing, trill, recite a poem" — alternatives are linno "to sing" and lirio "to sing". The gerunds of each would be glired, linnad, and liriad, respectively. I "the" would cause glired to mutate to i 'lired. Now, "of the" would be en- or in-. "Ravine" is riss, with the same plural. The combination of n-r with en-riss would cause nasal mutation, making it into edh-riss. Now, "the woods" might need a silent "of" as well, so en-eryn. This would make Lathron i 'lired edh-riss, en-eryn. - - - - - Pools shine in the moonlight, Lin (s)sila in Ithil light. "Pools" would be lîn or aelin. "Shine" in this case would be the verb síla, which takes an ending -r for plural "pools", making sílar. There are several attested words for "in", one being vi (though we don't know if that's its real form or if it's mi mutated), and another being ned (which may or may not instead mean "one more, another"). Due to this confusion, I feel the best bet would be to use the prefix di- "beneath" (though it's also glossed "in" in the 1930s Etymologies). Now for "moonlight". As you know, "moon" is Ithil. There is no attested word for "moonlight", so we could use glaw "radiance" (related to Quenya kala "light") to make di-'law Ithil "beneath the Moon's radiance", or we could employ glân "bright, shining white" to make di-Ithil 'lân "beneath the brightly shining Moon". That makes Lîn sílar di-'law Ithil. - - - - - It feels as if all the starry host, all the stars of heaven, are raining down. It feels as if elenath are eliad dad. "Feel" could here be represented by thio "to seem, appear". "As if" could be sui "as, like" (though it compares things, whereas be is merely "according to"). "All" (plural) could be pain, which lenited would be bain. "Starry host" could be elenath. However, the verb for "rain" is impersonal — eil means "it is raining" ... I suppose we could use it as the aorist "rain" to make elenath bain eil "all the starry host rains", as I can't think of any other alternative save to construct a verb *rosta from ROS "distill, drip". That might actually work better. As for "down", I'm not sure if adding it would be an Anglicism. If not, I'd attach it in front of the verb as a prefix, making elenath bain dadrostar "all the starry host is raining down".  This makes Thia sui elenath bain dadrostar. - - - - - The beautiful voices of the Elven folk lifted in song I bein voices of i Edhel folk lifted or in glinn For "voices" here I'd use lamath "echoing voices" since I'm not aware of a cognate of Quenya óma "voice". The adjective follows the noun it describes, so that'd be i lamath vain. (Bein was the Exilic Noldorin form — bain is Sindarin, and then it would be lenited to vain). "Elven folk" would be Edhelrim or Eledhrim with "Elf" and rim "host". This would make en-Eledhrim or in-Eledhrim. "Lift" would be holer from heli "to lift", sg. past tense haul (though I think that's transitive) or eriasser (from erias, pa.t. of erio "to rise"), and "in song" might be na 'lîr or na laer with na "with, by" and glîr "song, poem, lay" or laer "song, long lay". This would make I lamath vain en-Eledhrim eriasser na 'lîr. - - - - - - dreaming of the sea wind. dreaming of i gaear gwaew. "To dream" is oltha-, so the present participle would be olthol. "About, concerning" is o. Now, "sea" is aear or gaear. Tolkien kept changing his mind about whether there was a g- or not. In LotR, it doesn't have the g-, so I'd say o Haear because an H is prefixed to a word following o if it ends in a vowel. However, "the sea wind" would here in fact be represented with "the wind [of the] sea", with "wind" in front, so it'd be i 'waew aear, with gwaew leniting to 'waew because of i "the". However, you could make a compound aearwaew, making o haearwaew. That'd make: Lathron i 'lired edh-riss, en-eryn. Lîn sílar di-'law Ithil, thia sui elenath bain dadrostar. I lamath bain en-Eledhrim eriasser na 'lîr, olthol o haearwaew. I'll look at Poem #2 later. Edit: just realized i lamath bain en-Eledhrim should be i lamath vain en-Eledhrim! |
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THANK YOU!!!
i like making up weird poem like things, and my sister had a list of some Elvish words...hence what happend... Thank you for the proper translation! 
God bless! |
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Oh, I see. For a better "list of some Elvish words", there's a Sindarin one here, and Quenya here.
Anyway, onto a line-by-line analysis of Poem #2: - - - - The harper plays the harp, as the wispy voices of the Elven folk lifted in song. I talagand gannado, as i wispy voices of i Edhel folk lifted in glinn. Anyway, with talagand, in Third Age Sindarin the cluster -nd changed into -nn and then into -n, so we would have talagan. Additionally, the article i "the" causes talagan to lenite (lenition is "soft mutation") into i dalagan. The infinitive "to play a harp" is ganno or gannado, but the actual present tense is gannada. For the next part, I'd again use sui "as", i lamath "the echoing voices", en-Eledhrim "of the Elven-folk", and eriasser na 'lîr "rose with song" (compare my translation and comments on Poem #1). For "wispy" the closest thing I can think of is thuiol "breathy, breathing" from thuio "to breathe". So I dalagan gannado, sui i lamath thuiol en-Eledhrim eriasser na 'lîr. - - - - - The woods echo East, West, North, South with the song of the starry host. I eryn echo Amrun, Annun forod, harad with i glinn (s) of i elenath. The plural for "the" is in, so in eryn. "Echo" comes from the root GLAM, where we find glamor "echo" and glamren "echoing". But the verb we'd expect to mean "to echo", glavro, instead means "to babble". So, instead of using that, I'd try to use "make echoes", which would be cerir 'leimor (with lenition and a special plural). Amrun is Amrûn, Annun is Annûn, and I'd use trî "through" to make trî Amrûn, Annûn, Forod, a Harad using a "and". "With the song of the starry host" would be na 'lîr en-elenath. So In eryn cerir 'leimor trî Amrûn, Annûn, Forod, a Harad na 'lîr en-elenath. - - - - The wind battles the gray mist above the pool. I gwaew dagro i hith or ael. I "the" here would mutate i gwaew to i 'waew, and the present tense of dagro "to battle" is dagra. Hîth "mist" would become i chîth, and "grey" is either mith, mithren, or thinn, so it'd make i chîth mithren. "Above the" is or "above" plus -in "the, making örin into erin. This makes I 'waew dagra i chîth mithren erin ael. - - - - Under the crescent moon, starlight streams in the window of the lone tower to caress the dreamer. No i curan, gil (Light) streems in i henneth of i lone mindon to caress i dreamer. "Under the" would be nuin, and "crescent moon" is cúron. With a type of mutation, we get nuin gúron. "Starlight" is gilgalad, and "streams in" might be siria na "flows into". "Window" is henneth, and mutation makes siria na chenneth. "Tower" is mindon, minas, or barad but the latter two represent a tower within a city or fortress, so for "lone tower" mindon is the best. "Lone" might be represented by ereb "isolated, lonely" or erui "single, alone". But the latter was incorrectly used by the Gondorians to mean "first", so mindon ereb is better. "To caress" might be able to be represented by plada- "feel with the hand" or matho "stroke, feel, handle, wield" but the latter was confused with the verb for "wield a weapon, fight" so I'd go with the former. "In order to caress" might be a phladad from an "for" and pladad "caressing". "Dreamer" might be *olthron, so: Nuin gúron, gilgalad siria na chenneth e-mindon ereb a phladad i olthron. - - - - - One voice rises above the glorious song. Min voice rises or i glorious glinn. "One" as "a single" rather than "one (the first in a sequence)" would be er, and "voice" might best be represented by lam "tongue, voice", "rises" would be eria, "above the" would be erin, "glorious" would be aglareb, and "song" would be glîr. So, Er lam eria erin glîr aglareb. - - - - A song like copper-colored bells above the sea, floating in harmony with the land. A glinn like gaer nell (s) or i gaear, loda (ing) in harmony with i dor. Like before, "song" is glîr. There is no word for "a"; it is simply represented by showing the noun without the article "the" i. "Like" here would be sui, "bell" is nell pl. nill (or nellath), and gaer would become 'aer. "Above the" would again be erin, and "sea" aear (see my notes for Poem #1). "To float" is loda, and the present participle would be lodol. "Harmony" is hard to translate; I have no idea what to do — can't even think of a similar word. Constructions with "together" are failing me ... perhaps just "floating across the land", though it changes the meaning? That would be athar dôr. So: I dalagan gannada, sui lamath thuiol en-Eledhrim eriasser na 'lîr. In eryn cerir 'leimor trî Amrûn, Annûn, Forod, a Harad na 'lîr en-elenath. I 'waew dagra i chîth mithren erin ael. Nuin gúron, gilgalad siria na chenneth e-mindon ereb a phladad i olthron. Er lam eria erin glîr aglareb. Glîr sui nellath 'aer erin aear, lodol athar dôr. Though the last sentence is a fragment describing "song". |
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