Celtic influences in Tolkien's ME

This thread is the direct result of discussions that have taken place in AL in the thread Norse Resonances in Tolkien's ME

Aldo:  I think that you're on the right track here, but it takes some thought.  At the moment the few brain cells I have left are occupied with Tyr's teaser, but I'll try and make a special effort for you.

Captain:

Well, obviously one should not mess with stroppy Germanic feminists!  And certainly not marry them.  In fact, I can't think offhand of any Welsh ladies who could compete with this - I'm not sure about Irish, except for Mebd, and she was a goddess anyway.

Aldoriana, I'm not arguing that Tolkien wasn't influenced by Celtic myth. As I said, I don't doubt that he was - I was arguing with the first part of the statement

...Moreover, since the Celts allow far more prominence to women than the early Teutons do, much of what is Celtic in Middle-earthalso serves to idealize what is feminine...

I don't see that the Celts allowed "far more prominence to women than the Teutons", so I can't accept the corollary, that therefore"much of what is Celtic in Middle-earth also serves to idealize what is feminine". For the claim to be true you'd have to prove a) that the Celts did allow more prominence to women than did the Teutons, b) that there is a 'Celtic' element in M-e, & c) that this 'Celtic' element (& this 'Celtic' element alone) is what serves to idealise what is feminine.

And where, exactly, in Tolkien do we get this 'idealised' femininity? It seems to me that the only 'idealised' feminine figures are either 'deities' (Valar/Maiar) or they're Elves - which doesn't really count, as male elves are just as 'idealised' as female ones. I can't (though at the moment I'm struggling, as I've only had about four hours sleep - babies are so sweet!) think of any 'idealised' human (or Hobbit) women.

But Captain Bingo- Professor Burns is not excluding enchantment from Norse myth, she is simply emphasising that in her view if one draws parallels between the two,in her opinion she would see Celtic myth as overall providing enchantment and Norse myth vitallity. I don't find such a view so exceptional.

I tend to agree with you about cultural stereotyping- Tolkien's great gift was to be totally eclectic in his use of myth - much of it I am sure subconsciously -and via his Great Cauldron of Story transmute it into his own particular mythos.

Since halfir is commenting on Beyond Bree 1991, I'll take Vinyar Tengwar 21 & 22 (Jan. & Mar. 1992), where is featured the section entitled Still At Large There Were Giants of Patrick Wynne and Carl Hostetter's column Words and Devices. There is too much of interest to cover in as much detail as it deserves in a post without lengthy quotation exceeding fair use, so I will touch on a few points mentioned therein. The two-part column is actually about giants (as the title would suggest!), but discussion of Celtic influences in Tolkien's legendarium inevitably creep in, since "in Celtic mythology we also find giants as nature-myth."

Part one (found in #21) focuses on the similarity between the tale of Beren and Lúthien in The Silmarillion and that of Culhwch and Olwen in The Mabinogion (though there are other topics and focuses therein); since halfir's post addresses the same premise, I will therefore tailor my post likewise.

The basic idea behind Wynne and Hostetter's commentary is that "[...] the division of the year into two halves, Summer (the light half) and Winter (the dark half), was an important concept among the Celts," with the argument that there is an underlying layer of seasonal symbolism found in the tale of Culhwch and Olwen — with Ysbaddaden acting as the old winter god and his daughter Olwen being a spring goddess —  which Tolkien borrowed and incorporated into the roles of Thingol and Lúthien.

The editors make many observations about why said two Celtic personae can be said to represent those two roles, but I will instead focus mainly on the application to Thingol and Lúthien except when relevant to explaining the latter.

They note that the verse Lay of Leithian (c. 1925-31) found in HoME3 is especially significant in showing how "Lúthien is described in terms evocative of an Olwen-like spring goddess," where she causes a bird to sing, a frozen brook to melt and awaken, and snowdrops to spring up. There are also the lines explicitly comparing her to seasonal imagery, i.e. "Her robe was as blue as summer skies" and "her laughter lighter than the spring" (lines 27 and 32).

However, Wynne and Hostetter note that the most definitive piece of evidence in the verse Lay is when Tolkien curiously gives Thingol's daughter the name Melilot and describes her with golden hair "surpassing the color of golden flowers," as Olwen's is said to be in The Mabinogion. According to them, the significance behind the name 'Melilot' is that it derives from the Greek µελίλωτος (which refers to a type of honey-rich clover), and that in The Mabinogion, the flower which springs up as Olwen walks is meillionen, a Welsh word translated in the English version as 'trefoil,' a type of clover. Their conclusion is that it is probable that meillionen is derived from W. mêl 'honey,' roughly equating to the first part of the Gk. from whence comes 'Melilot,' and that Tolkien named her that "as a means of connecting her more intimately with Olwen and her trademark clovers ..."

Wynne and Hostetter say that "it is curious that in the Lay of Leithian it is not clover that springs up behind Lúthien, but rather snowdrops, flowers of the daffodil family," but it is my opinion that this is an instance where Tolkien was influenced by an earlier version of his legendarium. One would note that in the Appendix on names in BoLT1, CJRT writes in the entry for Nielíqui that "where her tears fell snowdrops ... sprang," but this is not the entire story.  He himself was quoting the Qenya Lexicon: the full entry as found on p. 68-9 of Parma Eldalamberon 12 says that she was "a little girl among the Valar who danced in spring — where her tears fell snowdrops sprang, where her feet touched as she laughed daffodils blossomed." This in itself is nicely alluded to by the fact that in the QL, the word for 'daffodil' as given on p. 44 is kankale-malina, lit. 'yellow-laughter.' The entry refers the reader to those of Nyelikki and nieninqe, the latter of which is covered by CJRT in aforementioned Appendix.

Moving back to VT21 along with Wynne and Hostetter's ideas, they note that there are elements of the Celtic season-symbolism found in the later Silmarillion as well — for one, it is literally said that "the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter" — noting also that Thingol is still given elements of a winter-giant, with "hair as grey silver," and that upon his daughter's death "a winter, as it were the hoar age of mortal Men" fell upon him (but which Lúthien healed with the touch of her hand after returning from Mandos). I simply must include a section of their powerful concluding statement:

"By disposing of Gilim and instead equating Thingol with winter, Tolkien accomplished two things. Firstly, his myth was brought into closer accord with the story of Culhwch and Olwen, in which the winter-giant was Olwen's father, as Thingol was Lúthien's. Secondly, the somewhat brutal tone of the Celtic nature-myth was softened and refined — the Welsh tale ends gruesomely with the beheading of the winter-giant / father and the setting of his head on a stake, whereas in Tolkien's story he is not slain but is instead healed by the power of his daughter's love, a far more appealing and civilized dénouement."

I hope that isn't too long to invalidate 'fair use!' For Wynne and Hostetter's detailed discussion of the role of giants like Nan and Gilim as influenced by the Celtic nature symbolism as well as further detail about how Ysbaddaden and Olwen can be identified with such (which I have not included), you will have to buy VT21 and look at it yourself. Part two of their Giants feature touches on Nan and Gilim and a bit of the Culhwch/Olwen story as well, though it is more focused on Greek mythology as opposed to the Celtic of Part One.

This is a continuation of my earlier post in which I excerpted from Beyond Bree 1991 (October, November, December) where Donald O'Brien had assessed similarities between The Mabigonion and Tolkien's writings, observing 'how the classic Welsh work The Mabigonion may have influenced events and names in Tolkien's Middle-earth."

 

The second (November 1991) extracts form Donald O'Brien's essay relate to the beauty of women, chastity , and chivalry. To me this is a somewhat weak section as the three topics dealt with occur in a widespread fashion in Medieval literature and I do not see that O'Brien establishes any really strong connection between The Mabigonion and Tolkien's writings here, unlike the earlier article quoted above in my earlier post.

 

O'Brien observes:

 

The exceeding beauty of a woman and its profound effect on the observer are a recurrent theme in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion.

 

He goes on to example Frodo first seeing Arwen, and Gimli meeting Galadriel, and compares those with Owein first seeing the earl's daughter (The Mabigonion pp. 178-9) and the earl first meeting Enid (ibid p.258).

 

Noble women should be pale -as Peredur saw the empress to be (ibid.p.215) and as were Eowyn and Arwen in LOTR.(As a matter of contemporary comment  in Thailand ladies go out of their way to ensure a pale complexion which is seen to be a sign of great beauty!)

 

The viginity of maidens was important in The Mabigonion (cf. The tale of Peredur Son of Efrawg  ibid pp.195-6), and in the tale Gereint son of Erbin (ibid pp.236-7).

 

O'Brien comments:

 

Doubtless both Luthien and Arwen were virgins until they were married and were dutifully respected by Beren and Aragorn respectively as chivalrous knights would have treated them.

 

Undoubtedly this is true, but it is a truism of much of Medieval literature and thus such a direct connection between Tolkien and The Mabigonion is somehwat tenuous.

 

O'Brien also observes that there are similarities between the evil lust of Melkor for Luthien and Grima Wormtongue for Eowyn  in The Mabigonion tale of The Lady of the Fountain (ibid. p.179)

 

And the chivalrous behavior of a knight towards his Lady- as in The Mabigonion's Peredur (ibid p. 193) has a comparable example in Gimli and Eomer's contention over the Lady Galadriel.

 

However, this section of O'Brien's on-going article I found to be particularly unconvincing, as the examples he gives from The Mabigonion can be found in a wide variety of Medieval literature too, and one is left feeling unpersuaded  as to any Mabigonion inlfuence on Tolkien here as opposed to any other medieval literature that he might have  read.

 

In his concluding section in the December issue of Beyond Bree O'Brien touches on magical lands where time seems to stand still, though appearing to pass in a normal fashion, Lothlorien and Gwales in Penfro (The Mabigonion p. 39); a lover's fixation, Peredur, and Aragorn in Cerin Amroth; a moving forest- the huorns in TT and Branwen Daughter of Lyr (The Mabigonion -pp.33-40); Shadowfax and magical horses with bright fire from their feet (The Mabigonion pp.104-5); Leogolas and Sgilti Lightfoot - whose name tells the similarity (The Mabigonion p. 102); Rings and cloaks of invisibility (The Mabigonion p. 38, p.211) similarities in names  -Teleri/Teleri, Ungolaint/Laint.Gwaliant, Doriath/Dorath, Ioreth/Iorwoerth et.sl; Sauron and The Black Oppressor (a thesis advanced by Ruth Noel and quoted by O'Brien - The Mabigonion p.209).

 

However, O'Brien quotes Brin Dunsire:

 

it could not be said that their style or atmosphere is at one with Tolkien's works. While ancient Wales and Middle-earth may share a literary apparatus of swords, spears, batles, horses, castles, wizards and magic , there is far more in The Mabigonion of animals, women, sex and babies - the tales are, one might say, earthier.

 

And O'Brien concludes his own analysis by saying:

 

I agree that the atmosphere of the world of The Mabigonion is far removed from that of Arda and that most of the 'parallels' mentioned above  embody motifs  common to mythological literature.Doubtless it would be impossible to 'prove' that any one source explicitly influenced Tolkien unless we are told by Tolkien himself that such and such an event in Middle-earth was modelled on a certain event in Welsh mythology. However we do know that the Sindarin language is based on the Welsh language. Doubtless Tolkien was well acquainted with ancient Welsh legends. The close similarity of some of the many 'parallels' discussed above while not demonstrating a direct influence of The Mabigonion on Tolkien's writings, certainly suggests that a direct infleunce of The Mabigonion at least in some instances on Tolkien must be given serious consideration.

 

And we must never forget the caveat that Tolkien himslef entered- in Letter # 337 regarding 'source analysis':

 

To my mind it is the particular use in a particular situation of any motive, whether invented, deliberately  borrowed, or unconsciously remembered that is the most interesting thing to consider.

 

 

Edited by halfir - 30/Oct/2009 at 12:29pm

Edited by halfir - 30/Oct/2009 at 12:32pm

Edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful - 31/Oct/2009 at 2:52am

Except that the article does contain actual misunderstandings of the words Tolkien wrote, which makes life somewhat difficult when Ms. Taylor then bases points in her article on  her misinterpretation of Tolkien''s  text!

Though the unfortunate misunderstanding of the expression used by Bombadil has diluted the validity of her arguments. the  pivotal point of her comparison IMO can still be used with fruiful results: Bombadil isn't analogous to Hades, it is the mother of Goldberry herself that have taken the role of chtonic entity. Bombadil is rescuing Goldberry of a life in the subaquatic Underworld of her mother, that can be seen as analogous to other "monstrous mothers" and "fathers" that are the guardians of the coveted "bride" of the heroes. The symbolism of Bombadil and Goldberry's story  is quite similar with the tale of Culhwych and Olwen and, therefore, with the story of Beren and  Lúthien as it was pointed out by Carl Hostetter and Patrick Wynne.

The River's Mother can be seen as an analogous of Louhi and Domnu, the divine and mysterious mother of the Fomorii of celtic mythology. It is, thus, quite apropriate, also,  to make comparison between Bombadil and Goldberry and the interaction between Vainamoinen/Ilmarinen and the Pohjola's daughter in the Kalevala.

I thought that the paralel is so obvious that it should have been pointed out by someone else before the idea ocurred to me. It wasn't?

 And considering other passages that gives the impression that Tolkien used the smeminal book of T.W. Rolleston the comparisons between Etain and Goldberry are quite interesting don't you think?

Edited by PauloIapetus - 05/Dec/2009 at 12:19pm

I feel that we are often in danger of exaggerating the difference between Celtic and Germanic mythologies.  Germanic stories also deal with otherworlds and fair folk under hills and especially in the forests

Edited by PauloIapetus - 12/Nov/2009 at 3:22am

Edited by Dorwiniondil - 02/Nov/2009 at 8:56am

Edited by PauloIapetus - 10/Nov/2009 at 7:21pm

Edited by PauloIapetus - 28/Nov/2009 at 4:21am

Edited by halfir - 02/Nov/2009 at 6:42pm

Edited by PauloIapetus - 03/Jan/2010 at 11:50pm