Joke??

There's a much nicer example of this sort of thing - no, not off-colour jokes; I mean, an example of someone being told something amusing, and with a little determined detective work, finding that it had been written by Tolkien. And this story has the inestimable advantage that it happens to be true!

It's about Tolkien's poem _Errantry_. Tolkien mentions to Rayner Unwin in a letter of 1952 that he'd had an enquiry from a lady asking about it. She'd only heard part of it, from one who'd heard it from someone living in Washington D.C. ! Tolkien was tickled pink at the thought of one of his poems having an oral tradition of its own.

(Letter no.133)

Further Googling this morning brings up still more variants of the "mismatched pair of gloves" joke, said on some sites to be "circa Victorian era" or "circa 1890". Some versions have the added line: "the latest style is to wear them folded down with the fur showing".

Thanks, Wayne and Christina!  I think we can consider that sorted.

Ha! Well, the joke's on me - for the life of me I could not remember where I'd seen this, and it turns out that it is on the same page as Grotta's mistake about Joe Wright. And I'd taken Grotta to task for that, in a post of mine some years ago. I ought to have remembered it!

So it's understandable that the poster in the Narnia website got confused - the info is in fact in a published biography; just not Carpener.
(And he/she did come back on the following page and admit not knowing the exact source, with apologies, which is only good manners).

Back on to my high horse - - Grotta! it's so frustrating: he put a lot of work into research for that biography of Tolkien, what with interviewing folk who knew the man and all, yet it comes to naught in the actual writing of the book. We can take nothing at face value.

If there is anyone who pretends to a knowledge that he does not possess, it is Grotta. And this in a published book, too! (as opposed to the internet, as I griped about in my post above). What is the world coming to?

As Gervox reports, the 'joke' is indeed in Grotta's biography of Tolkien, which should immediately raise suspicions, given the number of errors in that book. Grotta calls the joke an example of Tolkien's 'schoolboy wit' which 'survives in a typewritten letter that he sent to Allen Barnett', supplied to Grotta, we are to suppose, by Barnett's widow along with at least two more straightforward letters from Tolkien to Barnett from which Grotta quotes, and (apparently) Barnett's Oxford diary. Barnett was an American, a Rhodes Scholar who attended Exeter College contemporary with Tolkien, and was a fellow member of the Apolausticks; but he died in 1970, so could neither testify nor corroborate when Grotta came to do his research.

Anyway, there are a number of problems with the letter. It doesn't read like any of the demonstrably genuine early Tolkien correspondence we've seen, in wording or style. Tolkien would not, of course, have written 'color' instead of 'colour', though that could be put down to a transcription error. But clerk in the sense 'shop assistant', written twice in the letter, is an American usage. The use of 'gotten' also rings false for Tolkien. And would he really, when writing such an off-colour joke, have used his own Christian name in the signature?

We wonder, too, about the 'typewritten letter' sent to Barnett. If the joke is supposed to be by Tolkien as an Oxford undergraduate, is it integral with a letter from the same time, or a separate sheet associated with a letter from his Oxford years? Or is the quoted joke itself the 'typewritten letter'? Grotta isn't specific. The point is that 1911-1915 is almost certainly too early for Tolkien to have been using a typewriter for anything, let alone personal correspondence. And if the joke is in a letter written (typewritten) much later, it could not be an example of 'schoolboy wit'. The text could just as easily, as seems far more likely, be something that Barnett kept and got mixed up with genuine Tolkien letters, indistinguishable by Mrs Barnett.

After writing this, we did a Google search of a random phrase in the letter, and came across this blog page which reproduces a version of the joke, in some places word for word (in one instance with 'sales lady' rather than 'lady clerk', and signed instead by 'George'), which seems to pre-date the publication of Grotta's book (1976).

Wayne & Christina

Don't ask.

what's an end-timer?

Yes, I just couldn't resist putting my oar in on that one (my epesse on that forum is pretty transparent).  Their theology is pretty hot, however - a lot of them are End-timers ....

Just got back from work; so I can spend a bit more time on this one: that thread on the Narnia site does look unreliable, and what miffs me is that a poster can pretend to know something - that is, give the air of 'having knowledge', and is thanked for 'imparting' same - and in reality doesn't have a clue! It's frustrating to see this sort of thing. Mind you, the hapless recipient deserves no better, for not asking for a more detailed reference. This is not the only example I can think of on the net; all I can say is; 'In the Country of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is King'. Harumph!

Anyhoo - back to bawdy. There's a very rude song recalled by Lewis in a letter to his brother (Collected Letters Vol.II, dated Christmas Day 1931). Lewis heard it at a 'binge' of the English 'Cave', (that is, an informal group of teachers at Oxford which had formed to oppose the ruling 'junta' in the Oxford English School, in order to push through Tolkien's reforms to the syllabus. The group included many women members).

The extracts from the song which Lewis relates are far too rude for a family forum such as this, but incidentally, Lewis writes: 'I also heard at the same binge a very interesting piece of literary history from an unexceptionable source - that the hackneyed 'A German officer crossed the Rhine' was being sung at undergraduate blinds (ie drinking-parties) in 1912. What do you make of that? Can it date from the Franco-Prussian war?'

And of course, Lewis was aware of the history of 'lewd' words in English usage; his essay 'Four Letter Words' was published in _The Critical Quarterly_ in 1961, at around the time of the 'Lady Chatterley's Lover' trial. It is reprinted in 'Selected Literary Essays' ed. Hooper, CUP 1969.

An example of Tolkien's simple sense of humour can be found in a letter dated Good Friday 1973 to his friend Dr. Denis Tolhurst (who was also his GP in Bournemouth).

'Discussing the weather Tolkien notes: 'as far as we are concerned your 'Spring is a-coming in' is an unfulfilled prophecy with rustic accuracy and lack of 'delicacy' as a time when _heorst sterteth, bulluc verteth_ ie 'hart leaps up, and bullock farts'.
(from Sotheby's catalogue for the sale of English Literary History, Fine bindings....etc, London 10 July 2003)

It's not in Carpenter (we can't believe everything we read on the web).

I have heard of this joke and its attribution to Tolkien, some years ago; but no-one seems able to pin it down. I don't think it is by Tolkien, myself: though, as halfir says, he (and Lewis and co.) were never 'above' enjoying a bit of bawdy.

I see what you mean. Good ol' Stephen Fry 

Oh. I can't imagine Tolkien being particularly amused by 'bawdy jokes', even in hiss younger years. Not that he's too boring for them, more too... intelligent.

But yeah, proof would be nice.

Hmm, well whether it is or isn't, that doesn't really sound like a 'Tolkien joke to me. After all, this is the man that said... (in the interview in the header of these forums)

"There was one where I used bestrode as the past participle of bestride! [laughs]"

Dorwiniondil Internet sais here somewhere that it can be found in Humphrey Carpenter's J.R.R.Tolkien: A Biography.  

I have seen the following credited to JRR Tolkien in his Exeter College days - unfortunately the person quoting it didn't  know where they got it from; they just had a note saying "Joke by Tolkien".  If anybody can shed any light on this mildly amusing piece, I'd be grateful. 

 

BTW, "drawers" in this context is a 19th - ealy 20th century term for female nether underwear - rather like very long panties.

 

===================================================================

 

A young man wished to purchase a birthday gift for a lady friend. After much meditation and consideration he decided upon a pair of gloves as being appropriate. As his sister had some shopping to do, he accompanied her to a ladies' clothing shop.
While he was selecting the gloves, his sister made a purchase of a pair of drawers for herself.  In delivering the parcels that afternoon, by mistake the drawers were left at his sweetheart's door with a note as follows:

"Dear Velma: This little token is to remind you that I haven't forgotten your birthday. I didn't choose it because I thought that you needed them, or because you haven't been in the habit of wearing them, or because we go out in the evenings. Had it not been for my sister I would have got long ones, but she says they are wearing the short ones - with one button.

"They are a very delicate colour, I know, but the lady assistant showed me a pair she had worn for three weeks, and they were scarcely soiled at all. How I wish I might put them on you for the first time! No doubt many other gentlemen's hands will touch them before I get a chance to see you again, but I hope you will think of me every time you put them on.

"I had the lady assistant try them on and they looked very nice on her. I did not know the exact size, but I should be capable of judging nearer than anyone else. When you put them on for the first time put a little powder in them and they will slip on easier. When you remove them, blow in the them before laying them away, as they will naturally be a little damp from wearing.
Hoping that you will accept them in the same spirit in which they are given and that you will wear them to the dance on Friday night,

I remain,
Lovingly yours,
John

P.S. I shall count the number of times I will kiss the back of them in the coming year! John"