Gollum and Split Personalities |
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 Topic: Gollum and Split Personalities
I think that the character Gollum/Smeagol is a very interesting social commentary about people with multiple personalities. What I read from this is that they have the capacity to be kind and thoughtful people but also they can be very dangerous and bite peoples fingers off. So if you befriend a person with multiple personalities, you have to be careful of them. That's my interpretation of it anyway.
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stevestarsgard: A warm welcome to the Plaza and especially to the Lore Forums.
 So you mean all those suffering from MPD can be identified by the fact that they have a tendency to bite people's fingers off?
 But Smeagol didn't bite Deagol's finger off- he strangled him!
 {I have moved this to the Peoples & Races Forum as it is more appropriate there.}
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Smeagol bit Frodo's finger off, in the third book.
Really, I think that finger biting is just a small part of it, MPD people could bite any number of body parts off. Some of which would be much worse than a finger if you get my drift. (If you don't get my drift, I mean that they could bite off your penis.) But really, I think this says more about Tolkien than MPD people, because MPD people I've met didn't try to bite my finger off, probably Tolkien met one with a nasty personality that bit him, and he stereotyped. |
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But you probably haven't met anyone with Multiple Personality Disorder, because there is controversy in the relevant field as to whether or not it actually exists. Another indication that you are just making this up would be your apparent fascination with biting.
That said, Gollum does not exhibit the symptoms. He's clearly not right in the head, but he isn't suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder / Dissociative Identity Disorder. |
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What are Smeagol and Gollum then, if not different personalities?
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The same person.
There are two possibilities here. Either... you are thinking that what was shown in the films is how Tolkien wrote it, with Gollum holding lengthy conversations involving two distinct sides. Not only is this not in the books, but that type of behaviour is not typical MPD/DID. Or... you are referring to the changes in Gollum's motives and speech back and forth through time in the books. In that case, I would again point out that Gollum is very unstable, and the way he acts changes only after something important and personal happens to him. However, there is no indication that he, or anyone else (Frodo calls him Smeagol and Samwise calls him Gollum within sentences of each other many times), considers him to be a 'different' person. |
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"with Gollum holding lengthy conversations involving two distinct sides. Not only is this not in the books"
Hang on, that's not true. There is definately a point where Gollum has a conversation with himself, round about the dead marshes, and it it is quite clearly between the Smeagol and Gollum sides of him. Maybe it isn't done as explicitly as in the films, and certainly uses different dialogue to the conversation in the films, but it us there. |
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Even so, Tree, we can not categorize Smeagol and Golum as two identities of the same person. It is one person with different pattern of behavior in various different circumstances. It is as some reaction against isolation. People, disconeccted from normal social comunication react differently, and even start to talk to themselves to preserve their mind in tact. Yet they do not create another personality. As far as I know (it is not too much, but yet I know few facts): MPD/DID also has as simpthom loss of memory "in between personalities", in other words: Smeagol would not know what Golum did and vice versa. So I am strongly supportimg what Elenhir already said above. Gollum and Smeagol are one person say in "different mood". The last one is roughly correct and I only like to present the difference between MPD and changing behaviour as reply to the surrounding enviorement.
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That being said, Ammornil, we also can not deny the fact that Smeagol and Gollum interact with each other, so really it is not in a "different mood" but rather a different persona. If you classify Smeagol/Gollum (from the film of course, the books were excessively long and tedious) as not MPD, then pretty much no one is.
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stevestarsgard - welcome to the Plaza.
(from the film of course, the books were excessively long and tedious) Funny - that's almost exactly how I feel about the films! 
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It's all in the books...
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Going by the film version, it showed quite well the MPD with use of camera angles. But I am not entirely convinced that Smeagal/Gollum had this problem. After all he murdered Degol without real remorse at the time, he already had that singular malicious greedy attitude. |
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People. This is Middle-earth People and Races. The movies are irrelevant here. Don't bring them up. They are not lore.
Tree, it seems I am in need of another rereading. However, Ammornil's points stand. MPD is in the process of being retermed DID because it has, assuming it exists, always been about more than what the layperson would consider 'personality'. The 'Gollum' and the 'Smeagol' aspects of Gollum's mind share memories, and above all they consider themself the same person. I'd like to point out also that the instance in the Dead Marshes starts out with referring to the 'voices' of the conversation as 'thoughts'. It would seem that this is supposed to be an internal debate voiced out loud, for the benefit of foreshadowing to the reader and giving Samwise one more reason to be wary. Stevestarsgard, there is a long-standing controversy surrounding MPD and the fact that it was, for so long, only 'found' in America by American psychaitrists, and that it is still 'found' so much more frequently in America than anywhere else. There are plenty of people well-versed in the relevant field who would actually tell you that no one has MPD. That said, there are plently of films that show characters that have the symptoms of MPD/DID. I'd name one, but that would spoil the entire plot of a film. Suffice to say, Gollum doesn't make the cut, despite Peter Jackson's (best?) efforts. |
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I see your point Ammornil.
but... "MPD/DID also has as simpthom loss of memory "in between personalities", in other words: Smeagol would not know what Golum did and vice versa." It isn't quite as straightforward as that. Sometimes, one 'more dominant personality' can know what the other personalities are up to, even if the other personalities have no recollection of what they do. A good example of the is Chris Sizemore AKA Eve. She had 3 personalities, Eve White, Eve Black and Jane. I can't quite remember which way round it was, but I think it was that Eve White had complete recollection of everything Eve Black and Jane did, and Eve Black had no memory of anything other than the stuff that happened when she was 'out'. So in this sense, maybe Gollum is the 'dominant' personality, the one who remembers all, and Smeagol the 'weaker one'. But anyway, thinking about it, since the two 'sides' of Gollum spoke to each other, this sounds a bit more like Schizophrenia doesn't it? Actually, second thoughts, schizophrenia is when you hear a voice OUTSIDE your head. There IS a condition where you hear a voice INSIDE your head, but I can't remember what that condition is called. So in Gollum's case, I reckon the second condition (that I can't remember the name of) is likely to ring most true in the case of Gollum. |
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The only reason why Gollum bit Frodo's finger of is to get the Ring and because he got MPD.
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Life is an adventure
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Obviously he bit his finger off to get the ring... but I really don't see what MPD has to do with it, (that is of course if he actually had) MPD, which this thread suggests he doesn't. |
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As I said, Tree, I am not specialist and I have not specialized in mental disorder, more than part of my psychology lectures course dawn the university some 5 years ago. However, I will once again say, that my professors were more or less convinced, that we can not have MPD as real "illness", as long as it is turned to personality and so can not be studied out of "personal epycrisis". I am not aware of any particular cases in details. Still I am convinced to believe such illness exists. I stand for what I said above (not to post it again)
Cairwen: Sorry, I can not catch your point  --- interested in diferent opinions on MPD could check this: http://www.skepdic.com/mpd.html |
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Ammornil- Um, yes, but I wasn't disagreeing with you on that. I never said I thought it wasn't an illness, in fact I wasn't talking about 'whether it is or isn't an illness' at all....
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What I wanted to point, was that accordingg definition of simptoms, there could be one dominant personality, to know what others do, but none of the other personalities would even know this "dominant one" exists. In this case, the patient "Gollum/Smeagol" is all the time aware of his past, so based on the description and definition of MPD illness, this could not be the case, or we have to address the psychologists organizations to inform them that J.R.R.Tolkien also invented/discovered new form of desiese that was not even recognized as such during his lifetime (MPD is officially aded as illness/diagnosys in 1980 and renamed to DID in 1994). Gollum is a mistery, but his psychology is far (by my own opinion) beyond the human psychology models and disorder diagnosyses.
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Ammornil, your points seem to be contradicting each other, first you deny MPD exists, now you are saying it does. I say this lightly, but I think it may be possible that you yourself have MPD...
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I say this lightly, but I think it may be possible that you yourself have MPD...
.
Nice.
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Wisdom begins in wonder. ~
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"I say this lightly, but I think it may be possible that you yourself have MPD"
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i was led to believe this forum was set up to discus the depth and possible symbolism in gollums charecter not mindlessly insult people with schtsophrenia
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RIDE TO RUIN AND THE WORLDS ENDING!
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hostofmordor- Where does anyone insult anyone about schizophenia. Or MPD for that matter? And there's no symbolism in Gollum's character
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stevestarsguard, dolly, tree: thanks! I have been called a lot of things in my life, and I have to admit some people had their fair point. -> In fact I do have a form of mental illness, but it does not (so far) affect my mind and life-quality so dramatically. <- What I said in all my posts above and here again is not that MPD/DID does not exist, only that Gollum does not suffer such illness. It is only that by my opinion Smeagol's behavior does not match the diagnosis's description. You can always try to change it (the description) and make it fit. stevestarsguard: I understand your will to "make a great discovery", but I doubt this to be one. Anyway you have the right to "protect and defend" your point anyway you find proper, as do I. By the way my behavior around also does not match the symptoms. |
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Ammornil Henduluin
------------------ "Wisdom and Glory! Wisdom is in words, Glory- in deeds." |
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 I do apologize if I said it wrong, I meant to say that Gollum did have MPD, but that is not the reason he bit Frodo's finger of.
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Life is an adventure
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Cairwen: And I still can not see why do you think he (Golum) had MPD/DID. And what either him having or not having the personality disorder would have with the events on Orodruin? I think you are relying too much on images from the movies.
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Dissociative disorder does, I am certain, exist and is not uncommon in trauma victims (with whom I work). But it is not as thoroughly weird as "multiple personalities" that sit around and argue with each other and has nothing to do with schizophrenia, a very different illness. I do think that a reasonably convincing case could be made that Gollum had DID and that the trauma of finding, and then losing, the ring (not to mention torture by Sauron and long hunger) did great psychological damage to him, certainly sufficient to make him dissociative. Just because DID hadn't made it into the psychological literature by the time Tolkien wrote LOTR didn't mean that it wasn't noticed by anyone (remember Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde?). After all PTSD was known, it was just called "Shell Shock" by Tolkien's generation.
But people who are DID hardly go around biting fingers, or other body parts, off other people. Gollum bit off Frodo's finger because he wanted the Ring and his teeth were the only weapons at hand (or at mouth!) that could accomplish the job. |
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There is a difference between DID and dissociative disorders in general. You'll have to excuse me if I don't take your word as proof that DID actually exists.
If you think that a reasonably convincing case could be made that Gollum had DID, make it. There are arguments to the opposite effect that have been made here by myself and others; again you'll have to excuse me if I don't take your unsupported word as proof. |
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