Comments on Tolkien's Two Views of Beowulf. |
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 Topic: Comments on Tolkien's Two Views of Beowulf.
And don't forget that Bruce Mitchell has an important essay in the Tolkien Centenary Proceedings: "J.R.R. Tolkien and Old English Studies: An Appreciation."
Ach! How could I have forgotten that? 
Thanks for the reminder. 
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It's all in the books...
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Thanks for the pointer to that introduction, geordie. I can add that there is a biographical blurb on Bruce Mitchell written by his colleague Fred Robinson in Inside Old English: Essays in Honour of Bruce Mitchell (ed. John Walmsley; Malden, MA: Blackwell, 2006). Robinson puts Mitchell at Merton college from 1952–59. Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull mention Mitchell in passing in their Chronology entry for 20 January 1957.
And don't forget that Bruce Mitchell has an important essay in the Tolkien Centenary Proceedings: "J.R.R. Tolkien and Old English Studies: An Appreciation."
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I used Mitchell's book (co-authored with Fred Robinson) to study Old English, and had no idea about that connection. Interesting. Do you happen to know in what context he knew Tolkien?
I only know as much about Dr Mitchell's connection with Tolkien as is mentioned by Christina Scull in her brief introductory biography of Mitchell in Progress Report no. 6 of the 1992 Centenary Conference; that is, he met Tolkien at Merton College, Oxford, while he was on a post-graduate scholarship. Dr Mitchell also acknowledges Tolkien, Wrenn and Campbell in his Introduction to Kevin Crossley-Holland's edition of Beowulf (Macmillan, 1968) 'for the lectures I have heard them deliver and the stimulus I have derived from them'. In this introduction, Mitchell also quotes from an unpublished letter which he'd received from Tolkien. I have a link to an obituary of Dr Mitchell, who sadly died just recently. Look Here - though, I can't vouch for the accuracy or otherwise of the quote from Tolkien!  Edited by geordie - 01/Aug/2010 at 2:50pm |
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Dr Bruce Mitchell (who knew Tolkien) I used Mitchell's book (co-authored with Fred Robinson) to study Old English, and had no idea about that connection. Interesting. Do you happen to know in what context he knew Tolkien? I'll add my thanks to Tom Shippey for giving us such a wonderful piece- his ability to get across so many interesting ideas while making me crack up certainly does 'take my breath away' (maybe because I'm laughing too hard to draw breath  )! Introducing the discovery of the large halls at Lejre with the line 'And there are other reasons for re-thinking the embargo on historical speculation with regard to Beowulf. One is a very big one.' really made my day...I've never read Finn and Hengest, but now I really think I ought to. Just a couple of weeks ago I saw Benjamin Bagby perform the first third of Beowulf at the Madison Early Music Festival (absolute amazing, by the way- they even let us sit up on stage quite close to him as he performed, and it was quite something to see and hear him that close), and he ends his recitation not very long after the 'episode' is recounted. That left me wondering what the role of such an elusively told story (though I suppose moreso to us today than originally) would be exactly at that point in the poem, and I suppose there's really no one better to turn to for comment than Tolkien about this. Shippey's comments on 'Late Antiquity' were also very interesting. I've been poking away at Chris Wickham's The Inheritance of Rome lately- as the title suggests, the book's point of departure is essentially from the concept of 'Late Antiquity' and a large degree of continuity over the period, roughly the years 400-1000. But nonetheless, a major theme seems to be trying to figure out a balance between apparent points of continuity and the obvious breaks and upheavals, with a large degree of consciousness about previous scholarly views emphasizing both continuity and break too much. I'm still fairly early on in the book, but Wickham seems to be doing a very professional job of it so far. I particularly liked one comment, which seems to have a somewhat wider degree of applicability, which comes after discussing a Vandal elite in North Africa who spoke Latin and engaged with Roman political systems, but yet were creating a very different (and much more militant) society: '...nothing changed, but everything changed.'. Anyway, what really made Wickham's book come to mind was that he comes out in favour of an earlier date of Beowulf, which seems to fit unproblematically into his view of 'Late Antiquity'- and that he's a historian who seems relatively amenable to using Beowulf as a historical document. He even puts Beowulf's value explicitly on a level with 'historical' chronicles. As he says: 'The problems of using such {fictional} sources are not different in type from those involved in using Gregory of Tours, and indeed historians who use them have often found it easier to keep them in mind.' (p. 14). Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the historical truth of specific events or details in Beowulf, but maybe the repeated use that Wickham (who's an academic historian) makes of Beowulf shows a slight turning of the tide, at least among historians, who are perhaps inclined to be a bit sceptical of 'New Criticism' anyway?
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Yes!
 Thanks Dorwiniondil!  |
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It's mentioned in Letters p.212 (to W.H. Auden):
[The Ents'} part in the stroy is due, I think, to my bitter disappointment and disgust from schooldays with the shabby use made in Shakespeare of the coming of 'Great Birnam Wood to Dunsinane hill': I longed to devise a setting in which the trees might really march to war.
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"I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses."
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Did you table thump along with them geordie?! haha What is that story about Tolkien as a child going to see Macbeth? Something along the lines of how excited he became when the believed the Dunsimore Wood was actually moving, but it turned out not to be walking trees, but men carrying branches.
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I love not only the information I get from his writing, but also the way he presents it. Some essays feel stuffy and read more like fact sheets. Shippey's way of communicating his thoughts are such a wonderful balance of literary conversationalism, (making up another word here sorry), insights, facts and resources
Yes, Shippey tends to write in the same manner in which he speaks (and the other way round). The only thing better than reading a paper by Shippey is to hear the man reading it himself! And he's brilliant on Q&A panels. I remember him taking part in one at the 1992 Centenary Conference. Dr Bruce Mitchell (who knew Tolkien) recalled that Tolkien had advocated removing Shakespeare from the English course at Oxford. (well, that's a paraphrase by me). Shippey shouted 'I agree! Let's abolish Shakespeare today! Lots of cheering and clapping. Good, table- thumping stuff. Edited by geordie - 31/Jul/2010 at 12:10am |
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halfir poked me about them and I'm so glad he did! They were indeed fantastic. I had so many thoughts and found several things "clicking" for me as I read Shippey's essay! I actually found that when I went to write my post I was trying to remember all the lightbulb moments and make a post that at least touched on things as well as showed how fantastic I think the piece was.
halfir you are correct about Shippey! I do hope he realizes how honored we are to have him share his thoughts with us through this contribution. He really is a top quality authority on things Tolkien and I love not only the information I get from his writing, but also the way he presents it. Some essays feel stuffy and read more like fact sheets. Shippey's way of communicating his thoughts are such a wonderful balance of literary conversationalism, (making up another word here sorry), insights, facts and resources. I enjoy very much that I can also "feel" his passion for the topic he is writing about! Edited by Laielinwen - 30/Jul/2010 at 6:29pm |
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I'm happy to see some discussion here. I was beginning to wonder whether halfir and I were the only ones to read this great paper!
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He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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I second the emphasis on Finn and Hengest. Don't be frightened off by the footnotes - take heart, and you will find some remarkable work!
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"I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses."
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The man was a master and again I'm in awe.
Indeed he was, but for me, so is his greatest critical elucidator-Tom Shippey, of whom I'm in awe!
There's a song which has the reprise:
Take my breath away
I, for one, and I suspect a good many others say this every time we have the joyful experience of reading Tom Shippey's exegesis of a Tolkien work, and we at the Plaza are incredibly honorued and grateful that he has chosen to give his latest seminal thoughts publication via our website.
I too laughed out loud at the comments regarding dragons, particularly as I knew Ida Gordon (E V Gordon's widow) at Manchester University and her very negative views on Tolkien's fiction, which in her eyes wasted the career of a great medievalist! She most certainly would not have approved of his and Lewis' pursuit of dragons!
I was also pleased to see Tom Shippey pointing out the work that Tolkien had done in the Finn and Hengest essay edt. A Bliss. Apart from Tolkien's incredible generosity in sending Bliss his own work on Finn and Hengest Tolkien had burowed deep in that essay into the history of Beowulf, as Tom Shippey points out. Unfortunately, for many, the incredibly detailed footnotes of the work- which outweigh the text in what appears to be a ratio of 100:1
 mean that all too few of us have done any justice to it or realised its significance to Beowulf studies. Tom Shippey is to be applauded for getting us to focus on this very under-studied work of Tolkien's (under-studied that is outside the halls of academe).I have a number of other observations on Tom Shippey's excellent paper but I will leave those for a later occasion.
If ever there was a must read on the Scholars Forum, and there have been many, this most certainly is one.
Edited by halfir - 29/Jul/2010 at 9:02pm |
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He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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Wow. These actually spark excitement for me. That the poem is still being considered and rethought is a good thing. That Tolkien's influence, acknowledged or not, helps bring some things full circle is another. There were several
things in Shippy's essay that stood out to me or caused me pause. Halfir old
friend, I could easily see an outline from you with discussions on bits from
top to bottom like we did Sir Gawain all those years ago! I'll just briefly touch on some of the highlights that stood out to me. First, I had to laugh at
the thought of Tolkien's comments: Tolkien's approach of looking at the big picture makes perfect sense to me. Starting by seeing it as a whole and then looking to the parts seems logical. That he did that when historical critics were picking apart the details and devaluing the entire piece shows his forward thinking and insight. To see it from that perspective allows interweaving/interlacing (fantastic concepts from another plaza thread) to be more obvious. From a historical perspective it also makes sense. The critics' value of Tolkien's thoughts based on his seeing fantasy as a component also stood out to me. I agree that even today the 'fantasy' element is looked upon with a bit of snobbery. I love that Tolkien didn't let anything deter him though. It is good to know that trends have changed a bit regarding the value of a piece based on how much perceived historical relevance it has and/or the possible inclusion of a fantasy element! I think the approach or
seriousness with which the poem was considered based on conclusions drawn on
the quantity of history that can be garnered could be a huge debate unto
itself! I see it as literary tunnel-vision personally. Can I coin a
phrase?! The following
consideration of Tolkien and his great interest in the following's kindred
tragedy brought to mind the Kin Strife that Tolkien created. I wonder if this
had anything to do with the spark that lead to that part of his creation. Was this more interweaving/interlacing? It was definitely another example to me of Tolkien the man looking at the big picture and also being a lover and gatherer of details and tales! The information, as it
impacts the historical relevance of the poem & regarding
archeological finds concerning the following: excavations now
stretching over more than twenty years, but continuing right up to summer 2009,
was not one hall but six of them, Can you imagine Tolkien’s excitement at
this news if he were alive! I found Shippy's
following HILARIOUS: Finally... I was pleased to hear that the 'dating' of the writing of Beowulf is being looked at and considered again. A very good point made was that at the time current world events possibly cloudied viewpoints. In the midst of war our reality is different than when we look back many years later. Now looking back we can see things more objectively and from a different perspective. I'm just thrilled that after all these years the poem is still valued and still being discussed. I'm also thrilled that Tolkien's thoughts on it are being taken more seriously as well. The man was a master and again I'm in awe. Edited by Laielinwen - 29/Jul/2010 at 7:51am |
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A brilliant, highly informative, and equally interesting and fascinating, essay by Prof. Shippey. Many thanks once again to halfir and the Plaza for bringing us this invaluable resource.
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Please post any comments you may have on Tom Shippey's Tolkien's Two Views of Beowulf in this thread.
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He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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