Brother Joseph Power's experiences of Tolkien

[Ardamir]

While browsing Youtube for videos related to Tolkien I happened to find these:

A Wizard's Apprentice 1/4: Meeting Tolkien and C.S. Lewis
A Wizard's Apprentice 2/4: Drugs, Beer, and Faith
A Wizard's Apprentice 3/4: The Wizard's Presence
A Wizard's Apprentice 4/4: A Great Teacher

They contain an interview with Brother Joseph Power, who apparently knew Tolkien and CS Lewis in Oxford. He says a few interesting things about both of them. I had not heard of him before, and the Companion & Guide does not mention him, nor do my other Tolkien biographies. I will let Wayne and Christina know about him, unless they notice this thread themselves.

[halfir]

Ardamir:Fascinating. Thanks once again for bringing another little nugget to our attention. I checked in all the volumes of Lewis's correspondence and his biographies and there is no mention of Brother Power there either.It would seem he was signally fortunate in having a busy tutor who knew the right people!

I particularly liked the mushroom reference with CT bringing in a tray of mushrooms and cheeses- plus the bottles of sherry and port!

[geordie]

fascinating stuff- thanks for that.

I wonder if Brother Joseph Power is Canon Norman Power? That is, would he have taken the name Brother Joseph on entering the brotherhood in America? if so, then there is a bit about him (Canon Norman Power, that is) in Scull-Hammond.

[Ardamir]

Canon Norman Power seems to be associated mainly with Birmingham (he is mentioned at a few websites related to Birmingham).

[Dorwiniondil]

Thanks, Ardamir! Very interesting. If only the presenter had been as intelligent as his subject...

[geordie]

Just seen the clip on drugs - a singularly stupid line of questioning. Fr. Joseph comes out of it a lot better than his questioner.

On reflection, it's no wonder that CT and the rest of the family (generally) give the press a wide berth, if this is the sort of stuff they'd have to put up with.

[Yavannarímë]

Still, I liked the documentary. It was at certain moment going a lot in directions that I would not go, but found it very interesting none the less.

[medieval Isolde]

Canon Norman Power knew Tolkein when he lived in ladywood, He was the Vicar of Saint Johns church in Ladywood Birmingham. I was a member of the choir there. H e often told us of his memories and indeed he wrote some "Tolkienesk"stories of his own based around a place called Firland. The books were in print in the 1970s and if you are fortunate enough to find one then snap it up because they are hard to come by,

[halfir]

A warm welcome to the Plaza and many thanks for that interesting anecdote.

[Extollager]

Thank you for pointing out this interview. Aside from the interest of the reminiscences, I saw two photos of Tolkien that I'd not seen before (the one with the bicycles in the background, around 7:30 in the 2nd film, and a shot of JRRT striding along in the third film -- I think around 1:30).

[geordie]

Hi Extollager, welcome to the Plaza!

I can't remember where I've seen the 'bicycles' photo before. it'll come to me.

As for the second photo - by the look of his attire, I'd say that was taken on the occassion of the conferal of Tolkien's honourary doctorate. I've seen this gown 'in person', as it were - at an exhibition at the Oxford Town Hall, some years ago.

[Morgan]

The question if Norman Power and Joseph Power is the same person still confuses me. Are there any "hard facts" that can confirm this claim?




Edited by: Morgan_TG

[halfir]

<DIV marginheight="1" marginwidth="1" topmargin="1" leftmargin="1" ="WebWizRTE">
<DIV marginheight="1" marginwidth="1" topmargin="1" leftmargin="1" ="WebWizRTE">I don't think we ever resolved the question although from the post of medieval Isolde (April 23 -above ) it would seem that the two are not the same, unless the good canon upped stakes and went to America.But I must admit it seems a bit too much of a coincidence for them to be different people, both with a knowledge of Tolkien and both in Holy Orders and with the same name!Edited by: halfir

[Findegil]

Norman Power and Joseph Power are different men who just happen to share a surname.

Canon Norman Sandiford Power was born in 1916 and took his B.A. at Oxford (Worcester College) in 1938. He was present at Tolkien's reading of Farmer Giles of Ham to the Lovelace Society at Worcester in February 1938. Norman Power went on, as medieval Isolde says, to be associated with the parish of Ladywood in Birmingham. He was still in Birmingham in the years preceding the Tolkien Centenary Conference of 1992, when Christina corresponded with him about his article for the conference souvenir book.

Joseph Power, on the other hand, was born in 1925, took his B.A. at the University of London, and then had an exhibition (minor scholarship) at St Catherine's College, Oxford, evidently post-war. In the video he talks of visiting Tolkien's house for evening instruction in Old English, but instead joining the Tolkiens in a celebration of the republication of The Hobbit -- the second edition of 1951, we would guess. Joseph Power went to America (Canton, Ohio) in 1965.

The Tolkien Gateway entry for Norman Power makes a terrible hash of it by conjoining Norman and Joseph. How on earth could the writer think that someone said to be born in 1925 (Joseph) could be a student at Oxford in the late 1930s?

Wayne &amp; Christina

[halfir]

<DIV marginheight="1" marginwidth="1" topmargin="1" leftmargin="1" ="WebWizRTE">How on earth could the writer think that someone said to be born in 1925 (Joseph) could be a student at Oxford in the late 1930s?


An amazingly forward child perhaps!

Thanks so much to Wayne and Christina for clearing the matter up for us.
<DIV marginheight="1" marginwidth="1" topmargin="1" leftmargin="1" ="WebWizRTE">

Edited by: halfir

[Morgan]

As being the questioner I'm very grateful for the answer, but as the writer of the Tolkien Gateway article, I feel hurt and sad.
1) Tolkien Gateway consists of a small body of editors who work hard in trying to write good articles. However, the articles are always a work-in-progression, and the Norman Power/Joseph Power was an enigmatic issue with no clear answer having been given before this thread (as far as I know) .
2) Therefore, I posed a question here, since I was confused about the issue. Some days without an answer passed and I was planning to write a more lengthy follow-up reply containing the research I had found so far (in hope to get a renewed interest in the question). Eager to create an entry on TG, however, I tried to reconcile the small pieces of information I had found (from, e.g.,The Companion and Guide), which resulted in an entry which basically came to the same conclusion as halfir above (before Findegil's presentation of facts), although I put a special template on top of the article, pointing out that the entry is in a special need of more research.
3)

How on earth could the writer think that someone said to be born in 1925 (Joseph) could be a student at Oxford in the late 1930s?

. Several replies in this thread, from knowledgeable people such ashalfirand geordie made me consider the possibility that they were the same person. I too had reacted about what would be the extremely low age, but I hoped that the matter would clear up once more information would be available. And now that the facts have been given, I can go back to TG and improve the article (and create a new for Joseph Power).
Please remember that Tolkien Gateway is a wiki, not a finished encyclopedia. If you find a faulty article, anyone is welcome to contribute (we recently removed anonymous, unregistered editing, since we've had large problems with spamming, but are hoping to switch back in the future).
I finally want to acknowledge that Wayne and Christina have been most helpful before, answering many small questions I've had about issues on TG, for which I'm very grateful.
Morgan Thomsen,Sweden

Edited by: Morgan_TG

[Findegil]

Morgan, we're sorry if we offended you. We're glad to have helped you from time to time, and are grateful to you for your help to us. We appreciate that wikis are open to contribution, but to be honest, we don't have nearly enough time to correct or augment wikis for which we have useful knowledge; and since it's possible in a wiki for correct information by one writer to be made incorrect by another, even with good intentions -- the impossible notion of Tolkien's mother as a missionary to Zanzibar, for instance, still occasionally surfaces as 'fact' -- we stay clear of that kind of project.

Even so: it's not only the Oxford dates in the article that don't correlate -- by which someone born in 1925 (Joseph) would be only about 13 at Tolkien's Lovelace Society reading in 1938, very unlikely. Power is described as an undergraduate at Worcester College, then taking a B.A. from the University of London, then going back to Oxford for a B.A. again; and by his own report quoted in the article, Norman Power was still at Ladywood in the seventies (he was there from 1952 to 1988, see here), while Joseph Power moved to America in 1965 (as noted in your reference 4, which also puts Joseph entering boarding school as of 1936, so not likely at Oxford in 1938). It seems elementary, just from what's already in the article, combined with the references provided, that Norman and Joseph must be distinct persons.

Well, call us old-fashioned (we do), and we admit to having only a passing knowledge of the ways of wiki-creation, but it would never occur to us to post a work-in-progress, to be cleaned up by someone else, especially since people often take wiki articles, in any state of completion, as gospel truth. Anyway, our apologies again, no disrespect intended.

Wayne &amp; Christina

[Morgan]

Thanks for your reply,Wayne and Christina, and sorry if I instinctively overreacted in trying to defend the faulty wiki entry on Power. I guess I just needed to explain a bit about the background - being the target of criticism.



(I feel a bit tempted, however, to further ponder about the advantages and disadvantages of Tolkien wikis contra traditional paper encyclopedias, which I personally find an interesting subject, but I don't think it belongs in this thread.)

[geordie]

Several replies in this thread, from knowledgeable people such as halfir and geordie made me consider the possibility that they were the same person.

Speaking as one who voiced an opinion before checking facts, all I can say is 'Oops' - and express my own regrets for possibly having led others astray. (there's an old saying where I come from: 'engage brain before gob' - or in this case, keyboard).

Thanks as ever to Wayne and Christina for clearing these things up. And, Morgan - if you'd like to start a new thread of Tolkien wikis as opposed to paper encyclopedias, I for one would probably have something to say. In a nutshell, my advice would be; don't take for granted everything you read on the internet. And that goes for stuff written by me, too!



Edited by: geordie

[Morgan]

Thank you geordie, I'll have a try! (first time around and not a native English speaker, but I'll have a go!)

[Morgan]

Obituary: Brother Joseph Power
http://obituaries.pressherald.com/ob...;pid=154259317