Dark Land...a continent south of Middle Earth?

[Wilibald Bumble]

After looking at early maps of Arda today, I came upon the Dark Land. It is a continent by itself south of Middle Earth and one can get there by voyaging the East Sea which is east of the Sea of Helcar. Mind you here that this early map was of the Elder Days when Elves were not born and Eru had not changed the formation of continents in Middle Earth... So, this is a mysterious continent South of Middle-earth. It might be a jungle, as in the map were drawn many trees. No Elves or Men would dwell here but maybe the Mariners of Numenor journeyed here.



What my question is that is there any literay evidence in all the works of Tolkien to support that there is indeed a continent mentioned in the books. The only evidence I can find of this mysterious place is a map drawn in the revised edition of The Atlas of Middle Earth.

[Aslar Haechil]

It appears that the Dark Land was originally a term used for the land of Mordor, and the map you saw took liberty with the idea. Maybe they were inspired by Africa or somethingwhen they decided to include it.


"On at least one early map of Arda, a great southern continent appears labelled ’Dark Land’. This region is not otherwise mentioned, and is unrelated to the Dark Land mentioned in The Lord of the Rings." -Encyclopedia of Arda

[Tyrhael]

This is referred to in The Shaping of Middle-earth. The quotes are "in the South were the Grey Mountains and the Yellow" ...and a hastily drawn map as "Dark Land (South Land). However, the quote about the two mountain ranges was for an earlier map, and there is no trace of those two mountain ranges in later writings in that volume of HoME. However, it is clear that on the second map, the Dark Land (South Land) doesn’t refer to an African-shaped continent (because there’s already one of those on the map), but a sort of Antarctica & India thing. See the Encyclopedia of Arda’s map; it’s close to Tolkien’s draft (though it was an early idea from the 1930s).

[geordie]

It might be a jungle, as in the map were drawn many trees.



I would have to ask, where is this map to be found? [the one with trees]. If it’s on the net, then it’s best ignored, no matter what the source. Wiki, EOA - forget ’em. The maps in Atlas of Middle-earth are good - the position of ’Dark Land, or ’South Land’ seems right, according to the only map that counts - that is, one by Tolkien himself, printed on p.251 of HoMe IV, ’The Shaping of Middle-earth’.



There is very little written by Tolkien about ’South Land or ’Southern Land’ - and less about Dark Land. All there is to see is in HoMe Vol.IV [pp.249-51] apart from one mention in Vol.V and one in Vol.IXb. All in all - not a lot.

[Wilibald Bumble]

Geordie, yes the map I looked from was in the Atlas of Middle Earth Revised Edition. By the way, thanks a LOT for the literary references as I certainly want to take a look at them. Tolkien did not mention this a lot but it’s in his nature to leave his info-hungry fans some hints! Oh and to ignore Wiki is understandable but what is wrong with EOA? I have used it at times and it seems to be fine. Can it be edited by anyone too?

[Skauril]

I’ve heard from several sources that the Numenoreans probably explored this "Dark Land" on their marine voyages during the Second Age. I cannot verify this to be 100% true, and I doubt anyone else can, either, but IF the Dark Land did indeed exist in the Second Age and beyond (and why wouldn’t it, since Middle-earth’s continents roughly corresponded with those of our earth, which would make the Dark Land Australia or perhaps the Antarctic), it’s only logical to assume the Numenoreans did visit there on their way to the Gates of Morning in the utter East, seeing as it would have been right in their path


Tyrhael, here’s a thought of mine (take it for what it’s worth, even if very little ).. even though there was no detailed mention of the Gray and Yellow Mountains beyond the ambiguous quote in HoME, there is also no certain indicator that they no longer existed in the later ages. After all, the Blue Mountains survived the cataclysmic sundering of Beleriand, even though they were in very close proximity to that realm when it was annihilated. That only leads me to conclude, on a personal level, that the Gray Mountains and the Yellow Mountains would also exist in some form in the later ages. Hell, even the Iron Mountains, raised by Melkor across northern Middle-earth, survived their massive destruction in part, for instance as the Iron Hills northeast of Mirkwood.


What bugs me is that one guy who claimed that the Yellow Mountains had completely vanished in the reshaping of the world, and the reference page from the Silmarillion that he posted. I cannot comment further on this since I don’t have that book.

[Wilibald Bumble]

I finally gor the The Atlas of Middle Earth and in it it shows a map of Arda at the end of the Third Age. South lands or Dark Lands is still there south of Middle Earth and Harad and Umbar and South are just mentioned as Hither Lands. The southern tip which I am going to think is Far Harad almost touches the tip of the South Lands. If the Haradrim or the Corsairs of Umbar ever explored, we might as well think that they too landed in the South Lands as well as the Numenoreans. Here is a map I could find. Apologies about the map as it is of the Eldar Days and I could not find end of third age Arda on the internet but it is in the Atlas of Middle Earth http://z.about.com/f/wiki/e/en/thumb...250px-Arda.png

Another interesting speculation I read was that Arda was FLAT before the removing of Aman from the world. Then after that the Encircling Seas closed in and made the world round. I cannot find any evidence besides tat of Karen Wynn Fonstad in the Atlas of Middle Earth but I trust that source.

I

[Alcarináro]

It isn't south of Middle-earth. It is what remains of the south
of Middle-earth. Middle-earth is all of the lands that span from the greatest
north to the greatest south and are between the two Seas. What people
commonly, erroneously, refer to as Middle-earth is in fact nothing more
than what remains of the northwestern part of Middle-earth.

[Wilibald Bumble]

Wait how? I looked at the First-Age map of Arda and as you can see Middle Earth which is called Endor is clearly a continent by itself and you can see the South Lands as being completely seperate continent south of middle earth. This is before Eru's wrath and the shifting of lands.

[Alcarináro]

You didn't look at the pre-First Age map. The map of how things looked
before the Valar waged war with Melkor and took him bound and captive
to Valinor, imprisoning him to Mandos. And you didn't look at the map
before the fall of the Lamps, when the landmass stretched from the
furthest north to the furthest south, curved eastward at middle regions
and with a simple lake in the center, with a simple island in the
center of the lake.

[Lord of the Rings]

Yes, Wilibald, the world was indeed made round after the fall of Numenor. If you haven't already, try reading The Silmarillion, where you will find your answer, specifically near the end of the Akallabeth (the Downfall, which I hope I have spelled correctly).

[Wilibald Bumble]

Elenhir, I have looked at those maps. My emphasis here was just that some people might think that because of Eru's wrath the continents "shifted" and therefore the South Lands or Dark Lands do not exist anymore. That is why I put my emphasis more on the maps at the end of the Fourth Age to give conformation that that continent was still there.

Lord of the Rings, I have read the Silmarillion but I did forget that mention at the end of the Downfall. Thanks! I was focusing more the atlas of Middle Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad...

[Alcarináro]

Wilibald, what you have just said has nothing to do with my point, which was correcting the improper use of the term 'Middle-earth'. As long as they are still there, the lands that in the times of Men are reffered to as the Dark Lands, are still part of Middle-earth. Middle-earth is not, as so many would have people believe, only what appears on the map in the back of LotR!

[Oin]

geordie: There is some evidence to suggest that there were jungles in the South - there is a tantalizing quote from TTT: Helm's Deep that mentions Orcs springing up like "apes in the jungles of the South" or something like that. That would seem to indicate that there are jungles south of the desert that dominates Near and Far Harad. That is also probably the basis of the map with jungles, although Tolkien never provides the size or location or any other geographical information about them.

[geordie]

Oin - yes, I know the quote - but that wasn't my point. I was asking where the map is to be found. As far as I know, Tolkien did'nt do a map of the Dark Lands with trees on it; therefore I'm guessing it ain't by Tolkien [nor Fonstad come to that]. My point was and is that there are some ropy 'maps' out there which have little to do with Tolkien.

[Oin]

geordie: It is possible that it is the David Day map of the world - after the deserts of the Harad it has a Forest of Harad or something along those lines, and a number of other imaginary locations in the south of Middle-Earth: it was originally published in A Tolkien Bestiary and has since found its way on to the net. It has managed to find its way on this forum at least a few times as well. Considering he was dubbed an ass by Christopher Tolkien, that speaks for the quality and accuracy of his map admirably.

Or it could be some other hack...

[Wilibald Bumble]

geordie

Belive me the map is legit. It was made by Fonstad in her book and also Tolkien draws it in the Silmarillion as the map of the First Age. The consideration that Dark Lands were still at the end of the Third Age is made by Fonstad.

Oin thanks for the quote! I shall certainly look it up

[Morgil]

Willibald Bumble ... Are you using the revised edition of Fonstad's Atlas? There is a map on page 4 that I think may be the one you are referring to.

geordie ...Is your Atlas the original or the revised edition? The originalsupports your position. Whereas the revised edition does have a map that supports Willibald's.

Oin ... Unfortunately, Day's maps aren't the only ones on the net. The maps from the old Middle-earth Role Playing game are also out there. And they have some inconsistencies as well.

[Wilibald Bumble]

Morgil, yes that is what I am referring to There is also one Tolkien drew himself... which is in the silmarillion

[Alcarináro]

There are two maps in The Silmarillion, Wilibald. There is one of Beleriand in the chapter 'Of Beleriand and its Realms'. There is a slightly larger scale and slightly more detailed one in the back. There is no map of Arda, no map that shows all of Middle-earth. There is no map in the Silmarillion that comes close to showing anything near the middle regions of the world, let alone the South.

[Morgil]

Wilibald Bumble ... Alright, I have to admit that you've got me stumped on the reference to a map in The Silmarillion. Of the three editions I have, none have a map that shows more than Elenhir mentions in his last post. The most southerly point shown on any of them is the Taur-Im-Duinath, the "forest-between-rivers", which is still in Beleriand and the north of Middle-earth. Perhaps you have an edition thatwe'reunfamiliar with?Like Bilbo, I love maps, and would like to know more of this.

[Wilibald Bumble]

Morgil

I apologise for putting up Silmarillion there. My bad! I thought the map was in there but it wasn't and I put it up there as I know in some book Tolkien HAS drawn a map of Arda in the first Age. Perhaps you know where it is?

again very very sorry i should have checked first!

[geordie]

Morgil - let's see - Day *scrabbles about on floor - here it is* -yuk! Horrible! *puts it away* Nice pictures, though.

Fonstad - Must admit I was going by memory. I have both eds; let's see: Ah - trees. Oh well. But my main point - and I may have missed the answer; is - where does this map come from? The only map[s] I know of by Tolkien are in HoMe Vol.IV, which, I grant you, are hardly detailed. But then, maybe there's a reason for that - as I say, Tolkien hardly mentions these lands at all.

[Morgil]

Wilibald Bumble ... No problem.Anyone can make an honest, and harmless, mistake. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of thelocation of such a map.The only onesTolkien drew that I can remember seeing, were relatively blank save for the northeast portion of ME. However, since I got the Atlas, I've seldom used another geographical reference. So, it could just be a lack of recall on my part.

geordie ... I was wondering that myself. As I just indicated to Wilibald, the Atlas is my primary reference. It such a map was known, I wonder why it wasn't in the original edition. Perhaps one was discovered in Tolkien's papers?

[Imp88]

I think I saw some extended map that had went all the way to the Red Mountains and featured a big advanced city beyond Far Harad, but I can't find it anywhere in Tolkien or any canonical source, so it might be either a knockoff or a product of my overactive imagination.


Anyway, I think our region of knowledge does not extend past the wastes of Harad, Rhun, and Forodwaith, sice I have never seen proof of anything beyond (excluding Valinor, Numenor, and the undetailed continent map previously brought up in this thread).

[Imp88]

btw, what's that little continent off to the side? I've never seen it before.

[Wilibald Bumble]

Morgil, I will read the text again to confirm how Fonstad exactly acquired that map. Maybe it says it somewhere. Yes, a logical explanation may be that it's in one of the letters but I'll double check just in case.

[Imp88]

I found the extended map here. It's probably non-canon, but does anybody know for sure?

[Wilibald Bumble]

Imp88 that map is innaccurate in some places. I'm placing my emphasis on Fonstad and she definately has not measured the Hither Lands that long. They soon break off to the East Seas.

[Dagoriel]

I do not know much about maps so I won't try that. But when the Maiar were fighting Morgoth the world changed. It just could be that the continent could have shifted up to Middle Earth and connected with it. Since you mentioned that it was a dark continent maybe that is where the evil men could have come from to help with the battle of Minas Tirith but were overtaken by Aragorn and his ghost army.

[Fhaleen]

Hello! I'm new here and I found this page, because I found a map on the internet with a continent named 'Dark Harad' to the south of Harad. I wanted to know more about it, so I googled 'LOTR Dark Harad' and found this page. I think the Dark Land (or Dark Harad) is the continent where the Half-trolls originally came from. I've based this on absolutely nothing, but I don't think the half-trolls originally came from (Far) Harad, but from another continent.

For anyone who wants to take a look at this map, I found it here: http://fanmodules.free.fr/Map%20Making/Gazeter%20version%202.jpg

[Eldorion]

I believe that map was made for a tabletop game based on The Lord of the Rings. Even if my memory is faulty, it's certainly non-canon. Tolkien didn't write very much about the lands outside of the northwest of Middle-earth. We know next to nothing about half-trolls specifically (assuming they are literally half-trolls).

[Fhaleen]

I can remember something about half-trolls was mentioned in the books, but it wasn't much and I don't exactly remember what it was. But I remember that it was something like 'they looked like half-trolls', maybe just to indicate that they were about half the size of trolls. I've heard three names for them: half-trolls, troll-men and men of Far Harad. The first time I saw them outside the books was in the game Battle for Middle-earth 2 as Half-Troll Marauders and they looked like this:

Second time was not long ago in the game Fourth Age Total War, where they were mentioned as Men of Far Harad looking like this:

Third time was in another game Third Age Total War as Troll-men of Harad:


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[II-melian-II]

<DIV =WebWizRTE marginheight="1" marginwidth="1" leftmargin="1" topmargin="1">Well this topic is quite conveniant as i was also looking at maps of Arda last night. The Dark Lands have always been there, in the First Age before the Quenti and through to the Third Age. No-one and nothing dwells there, as someone mentioned, it is a jungle and very inhabitable. The only life that was ever there were Melker (or Morgoth) and one of his creations, Ungoliant. She feld the North to the Dark Lands to be away from the Valar, the light of the Treesand fill her hunger.She lived therein the from of a giant and terrible spider, spinning webs of darkness and cowering in the mountains. Melkor came to her and together they weaved her darkness East to Valinor.And during the great seasonal feasts and gathering of the Valar, Maiar and Eldar the darkness cast a shadow of Valinor and Melkor and Ungoliant, with her great thirst,destroyed the Trees, killing them and theyre light.
lol. Hope that answers ur questions about the Dark Lands. Above them is the Hither Lands, also uninhabitted. They are the lands that seem to be similar in shape to the continent of Africa :)

[Dorwiniondil]

<DIV =WebWizRTE marginheight="1" marginwidth="1" leftmargin="1" topmargin="1">Just a reminder: the only reliable maps of Arda are those drawn by the Tolkiens, father and son, Pauline Baynes, and Karen Fonstadt. Anything else is a best dubious, drawn by people speculating on little or no evidence, or (more frequently) deciding that they know more about Tolkien's world than he did himself. In any case, I don't think that the "Lore" forums are a good place for RPG - try the Regions / Kingdoms.