The Hobbit in Irish

[geordie]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before - Look here

- and, there's a fascinating follow-up in a letter Here - wherein the son of one of Tolkien's dear Irish friends casts new light on Tolkien's views of Ireland, with quotes from letters never discussed before. Wonderful!



*with thanks to one of our indefatigable friends in the Tolkien Society for e-mailing me with this news.

Edited by: geordie

[Dorwiniondil]

Thank you, geordie! I had noted the publication of the Irish "Hobad", but the letter is a real treat!

[halfir]

Thanks as ever geordie - a small tribute has been given.And I loved the name Smóg an dragan - I wonder how the Master would have received it.Edited by: halfir

[Lord of the Rings]

Very interesting! I wonder if there's any chance that Mr. Hogan would consider making those letters publicly available (or at least further extracts, if there is personal material in there that he'd rather not publish)? Not that he'd be under any obligation to or anything, but I think a fair number of people would be interested and grateful if he did.



On the Sayer comment about evil in the ground - am I right in remembering that the veracity of that particular anecdote has been called into question? I know there was a thread discussing it some time ago, but I can't seem to dig it up quickly, and I can't quite remember what the conclusion of the discussion was.
Anyway, the translation seems very cool - though it seems a little strange to get a Gaelic translation before Yr Hobit(though I gather this isn't the first Celtic language translation - The Annotated Hobbitsays there's a Breton translation already, An Hobbit, pe eno ha distro, from 2001).
I'd be very curious to see how a Celtic language translation would handle the 'translation theory' of TLotR, actually, since it would pose some problems beyond the norm that aren't really addressed in Nomenclature- I'm thinking especially of things like Archet and Bree. Also, since Nomenclatureseems addressed especially at Germanic language translations, should the Rohirrim still speak Old English (which would be nonsensical according to Appendix F, although it's Tolkien's unqualified recommendation in N), or should we get them declaiming in Middle Welsh or Old Irish? Maybe we'll find out if Nicholas Williams keeps at it.
Out of curiosity, does anyone read Irish or know someone who does who might be reading this translation? If anyone felt like providing a short review at some point once this is published, there would certainly be a place for it on the Plaza.

[Dorwiniondil]

Yes indeed, it would be excellent to have a review by somebody fluent in Irish. Unfortunately my Irish is vestigial, and I don't know anybody else competent.
I'm not surprised that there hasn't been a Welsh translation - Ithink Yr Hobit would poseall sortsof problems ... and as for Arglwydd y Modrwyau ...!! Amon Hen = Old Ammon ....

Also the fact that these transaltions are intended for people the overwhelming majority of whom are bilingual in English anyway raises other issues!

[halfir]

LOTR I think this might be the thread on Tolkien and Ireland you were thinking of:

http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/forum...asp?TID=218285

Scholarly consensus appears to think that Sayer either misremembered or misrecalled what Tolkien had actually said on the topic of Ireland and evil. I must admit it has never made much sense to me.

[Lord of the Rings]

I'm actually kind of wonder what sorts of special problems a Welsh Hobbit would give that wouldn't already be present in the Breton or Irish ones, or really in any translation. I agree TLotR would be really hard to translate, but so many of the names in TH are either Germanic/made-up names that could be taken as such (maybe with sound adjustment, like Irish Smógfor Smaug), or else common nouns used as names (which certainly fits with Welsh onomastics - Brynmawr, anyone?), that I wouldn't have imagined it was all that difficult to translate. I suppose some of the poetry and things like Bag End/Sackville-Bagginses might be a little bit of an issue.
I guess it would get awfully hard if you were trying to lay the groundwork for an eventual TLotR translation, though. Then you would have to at least think about all the Germanic names, and whether they should stay as such or be rendered in some sort of equivalent. I can imagine that getting very elaborate very quickly - would it be going too far to replace the Eddaic names of the Dwarves with some names from the name-list in Culhwch ac Olwen? (My answer: probably, but it's fun to think about!)
Thanks for the link, halfir

Edited by: Lord of the Rings

[Lord of the Rings]

halfir, I've had a look through that older thread - do you recall what the specific references are in which 'the quote by George Sayer has been queried by a number of scholars'? I understand the general hesitation--relying on one man's memory and interpretation of another's conversational words from some while before leaves a lotof room for the original sentiments to become obscured--but I'm kind of curious whether there's a more specific objection to what Sayer said.

[geordie]

Some more news here -

Look here

Apparently only 18 copies are going to be printed.

[Dorwiniondil]

Interesting!

The problem of a Welsh translation of TH (and still more LotR) is, I think, the fact that Welsh is phonologically similar to Sindarin (and related Elvish forms) in a way that not even Breton is,leading to apossibility of confusion. All the same, it would be interesting to see an attempt, even one meant only for collectors.

As for adapting the names to fit a different mythology: I remember having similar ideas many years ago about a Russian adaptation making use of byliny etc. - Ох ты гой еси Фродо сын Дрогович .... Unfortunately the attempt just got so convoluted so quickly that I abandoned it.
Edited by: Dorwiniondil

[geordie]

Dorwiniondil -

My earlier attempts to continue my previous post were foiled by a recalcitrant PC at work - here's an excerpt I was going to include:

Mr Everson said certain "Hobbitesque" words, especially place names, proved challenging when it came to finding an equivalent word in Irish. 'Gleann na Scoilte' was chosen for Rivendell, 'An Mhodarchoill' for Mirkwood and 'An Dobhar' for The Water, while Hobbiton will be known as 'Baile na Hobad'... "The translator and I argued for about five years on what to call the elves. The rest of it is pretty straightforward," said Mr Everson.

[Lord of the Rings]

An Dobharwas a challenging name? There's even considerable historical precedent for Celtic place names consisting of just that word for 'water'. Dover, for instance. But maybe that's less common in an Irish context?

[geordie]

I was tickled by the comment that they took five years to decide what to call the Elves. I wonder what they settled on? What's wrong with Tuatha de Danaan, I should like to know; or the Sidhe?

>ducks<

[Lord of the Rings]

Tuatha de Danaan? Sidhe? What nonsense - they should of course use lupracán(leprechaun) for the Elves.