Language Help Desk 45

**Tyrhael** · 01/Dec/2006, 10:35 AM

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Suil a mae govannen, mellyn! ("Greetings and well met, friends!" in Sindarin)

PLEASE READ THIS HELPFUL INFORMATION

Aword about "Elvish"
There is noone language called “Elvish.” There are many different languages spoken by the Elves, including:Quenya, Sindarin, Telerin,Nandorin,and Avarin.Only two of these languages were developed enough by Tolkien to be spoken or written:Quenya and Sindarin. The one being spoken inthe movies is David Salo’s standardized Sindarin, although there are a few lines in Quenya.
Where can I learn Quenya or Sindarin?
Thorsten Renk’s Sindarin and Quenya courses (available in several languages) can be found at Parma Tyelpelassiva(he also has an Adûnaic course), and there is a Quenya course by Helge Fauskangerat Ardalambion.There are some basic Sindarin grammar lessons on the Rivendell kingdom pages.
What is the difference between Quenya and Sindarin?
Both languages developed from a common beginning.Sindarin is the language spoken by the Elves who remained in Middle-earth. Quenya is the language of the Elves who journeyed to Aman, the Blessed Realm where the Valar live.In Middle-earth, Quenya is only studied in books, much like Latin today (though it was the native tongue of the Noldor in Middle-earth, who learned Sindarin after arriving), while Sindarin is used for dailycommunication. Most Quenya words end in vowels,whereas Sindarin words mostly end in consonants. Listen to Tolkien read Namáriëin Quenya and A Elbereth Gilthoniel in Sindarin.

Where can I learn about all of these languages?
Thesite with the most information on the most Tolkienian languagesis Ardalambion. Parma Tyelpelassiva also has several articles about several different Tolkienian languages. The Elvish Linguistic Fellowship publishes a journal called Vinyar Tengwar and has some informative articles. Books on Sindarin and Quenya become obsolete with the publication of new information from Tolkien’s notes and papers. Many internet websites offer incorrect information. There are excellent email discussion lists called ELFlingand Lambengolmor, with all posts archived and searchable. Another email discussion list, TolkLang, is long since dead but still searchable and archived, as there are numerous bits of information on it that will be of interest to the linguistic-minded. There is an analysis of Adûnaic at Lalaith’s Middle-earth Science Pages.

Where can I find a Sindarin or Quenya dictionary?
Didier Willis’ Hiswelókë Sindarin Dictionary is an excellent resource; there is a Beta version online with a wordlist in English, German, and French.There is a program form called Dragon Flame for PC’s, and also a handy PDF version, thoughv2.0 dates from 2003 and has some outdated forms that we now know to be misreadings/misspellings (like thenid/thenin), as well as a feweditorial changes now realized to be incorrect (like listing mudas as a noun).There is an excellent Quenya word list at Ardalambion also.
What did they say in the movies?
For everything you could possibly want to know about languages in the movies, go to Gwaith i-Phethdain.
How do you pronounce these languages?
You can go to Ardhon Ellammath for a Sindarin pronunciation guide and audio files of someof thelinguistic corpus,or Glǽmscrafuwhere many, many passagesfrom Tolkien’s linguistic corpus (Quenya, Sindarin, Noldorin, Khuzdûl, Telerin, Valarin, etc.) are read in audio files. You can hear Tolkien himself recite pieces of The Hobbit and LotR (including certain names) here. I might as well include JRRT reading the complete Ring Verse (in English) here, though it's not language-related.

Can I find out what my name is in Quenya or Sindarin?
You can go to Quenya Lapseparmafor many names translated into Quenya. If you want your name in Sindarin, find the meaning of your name at Behind The Nameand then ask someone here to translate it for you!Taramiluiel has translated many Real Life namesinto Sindarin.They’re availableatTara’s Home.But beware of the name generators at The Barrow Downs and Chriswetherell.com. These giverandom elements from Sindarin and Quenya, and do not actually translate your name; you can type in gibberish, and it will still give you a "translation".

What books or sites are not to be trusted?
The Languages of Tolkien’s Middle-Earth, by RuthNoel, is out-dated and terribly inaccurate. Also The Grey Company does not teach Tolkien’s languages, but used them to create their own language. Be wary of any site that does not specify between Quenya and Sindarin. Learnelvish.com and hotelf.com should be avoided, as they are very inaccurate.
What about David Salo's book Gateway to Sindarin?
You can read a review of his book here.

How can I learn to write the script that is on The One Ring?
This is called the Tengwar.It is just a script, not a language. You can find out about itat Amanyë Tencelior from Per Lindberg’s excellent Guides. For examples of how numerals were written in Tengwar, see Dan Smith . Also, if you wish to carve out ’runes’ or Cirth, go toOmniglot; the Angerthas Daeron, Angerthas Moria, and Angerthas Erebor can be foundhere.How to write Rúmil’s Sarati can be found here. An excellent article on the history of these scripts and their different Modes and uses, can be found here, though you need the fonts Tengwar Parmaitë, Tirion Sarati, and Cirth Erebor to read it. A document of the known tengwar samples can be found here. You can see how to write in the Runes of Gondolin as well as a full English mode of the Tengwar here.
Where can I find fonts to write with the tengwar?
You canfind Tengwar Parmaitë at Amanyë Tenceli, as well as a few for the Sarati and Valmaric scripts,and others at Dan Smith’s Fantasy Fonts. Also worth looking atare Elficaand Gothika, and the cursive font found on the One Ring. Do not downloadthe incorrect font Tengwar Gandalf.
How do I put accents above my letters?
You can find symbols for Old English here, other lowercase symbols (including vowels with macrons) here, and lots of different symbols for different languages here (you just have to look around a bit).

What about Tolkien’s other languages, like Dwarvish and Entish, can I learn those?
No, not really. Tolkien did not develop these languages well enough to be spoken or written; but Tolkien did "represent" Rohirian with the Mercian dialect ofOld English/Anglo-Saxon, like he "represented" Westron with English and the language of Dale as Norse.
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**Karis Ziranphel** · 30/Dec/2006, 11:09 AM

Tyrhael ~ I was wondering if you could answer a question I’ve had for some time now. I know that Tolkien did not develop the language of men (Adunaic) to the extent he did Quenya or Sindarin, but would you know where I could find out more about it? As I recall there used to be a short "dictionary" of all known Adunaic terms on the Gondor site, but I can no longer find it. To be true to my character, I would like to learn as much Adunaic as is possible in addition to brushing up on Sindarin (since I don’t recall Tolkien doing much in Westron). I would appreciate any insight that you have.

**Tyrhael** · 30/Dec/2006, 12:41 PM

There’s a bit on Adûnaic here, and also here. There’s also a course for it here.

**Karis Ziranphel** · 31/Dec/2006, 12:52 AM

Thank you Tyrhael!

**Pellaæarien** · 31/Dec/2006, 07:45 PM

*wanders in and blushes shyly* Hi... not sure if this is the right thread for this... I was originally going to post it in translation, but I realised halfway though that it wasn’t a translation point, it was a grammar point, so here I am...

I was wondering... is the situation in Quenya like to the one in Sindarin with no explicit word for "to be"? I ask because I was attempting to translate the phrases Don’t fear, love. All will be well. for something I was writing, and got as far as Alcaure, melme. Ilye... and then I was stuck. Because I don’t know the future tense of "to be", or even if there is one. Is there some sort of prefix that can be stuck onto well (as in good) so that it becomes the future tense of the verb?

**Tyrhael** · 31/Dec/2006, 08:15 PM

Don’t worry about the "right thread"; this is fine. There is a verb ’to be’ in Quenya; the future tense is nauva. However, with your translation, "Don’t fear" needs to be an imperative (i.e. a ’command’ form), and caurë is a Qenya noun rather than a verb.I’d suggest Áva rucë "Don’t fear", with the negative command particle-thingy áva in front of the verb rucë "feel fear or horror". Also, melmë is "love" in the sense of the abstract emotion. "Love" as in a person would be melindo "lover (masc.)" or melissë "lover (fem.), or meldë "friend (fem.)" or meldo "friend (masc.)". And "well" as an adverb, i.e. "Well met" or a verb done "well" would be mai. For "good" there is mára "useful, fit, good (of things)" and mánë "morally good". And I think "all" as a noun would simply be ilya, though there’s illi in later sources.

All in all, I’m glad you tried doing this yourself first; are you trying to learn Quenya, or was this a one-time thing in order to translate a phrase?

So I would say Áva rucë, meldë / meldo (or melissë / melindo). Ilya nauva mára.

**Pellaæarien** · 01/Jan/2007, 05:45 AM

Thank-you, Tyrhael!

Well, I did do a stint of learning Quenya a few years ago and didn’t get past lesson 20 (there just wasn’t enough time) and then a little while later I picked up Sindarin and ran with it, so I know more Sindarin than I do Quenya... so I do know enough to translate the little phrases that everyone wants you to say when they find out you "speak" quote on quote an Elven language, but that’s about it. I have an Elven-Quenya dictionary and I’ve downloaded Dragon Flame, plus started reading over Thorsten Renk’s Sindarin course, and they’ve helped me immensely on more than one occasion. I use the books, as well as some stuff from Fellowship of the Wordsmiths (Namely, the Linguistic Soundtrack Textbook and the Linguistic Dialogue Textbook) the latter being one of my own complilations from the info on the site.

There, more information than you wanted, right? Sorry. I guess therein lies my problem, because I just translate the words without having any idea of the meaning... I should pay closer attention to the dictionary - I should have seen that wasn’t a noun... ah well...

Thanks again!!

**Quetildil** · 03/Jan/2007, 08:03 PM

Tyrhael - Hello again! Iwas wonderingif Thorsten Renk's Quenya course is areliable guide.I know that some words and grammar structures are his own reconstructions,but how reliable is this guideas a grammar lesson and a vocabulary reference, and how accurate are his reconstructions? I have read through it twice now and have found it very easy to understand. I have found that memorizing the vocabulary is much harder than remembering syntax. It seems to be a relatively easycourse for this high school student!Thanks again!

**Tyrhael** · 03/Jan/2007, 08:15 PM

I would say that it is reliable (I just read through it a couple days ago), though there a few (minor) things that need to be updated, like that núro is a misreading for "servant" rather than "sunset". I'd recommend it over the Ardalambion course, though, in terms of accuracy and user-friendliness.
As for specific points of your post:
1) grammar: It does pretty well,since he uses the technique of coloring hypothetical or sketchy stuff grey.
2) vocabulary: He usesa coupleQenya words mixed in there where Quenya words could be used, e.g. furin.

However, I would definitely recommend it. If you have any questions about Quenya in the future you can ask them here. And I'd recommend seeing the articles about Quenya on his page Parma Tyelpelassiva in addition to using the course.

**Sedril** · 20/Feb/2007, 04:25 PM

There’s one aspect of Quenya and Sindarin pronunciation that I am confused about and don’t know where to look. Is there any information on which syllable(s) should be stressed in Sindarin and Quenya words? It’s relatively clear in poetry with meter, but is there any pattern that would tell me how to pronounce a single word or name out of context (assuming it wasn’t in the sound archive)? Would it make any difference whether the word or name is a compound word?<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Also, does the acute accent indicate stress, or does it show something different such as a long vowel? I know that the circumflex accent indicates a long vowel in the Elvish languages, but does it indicate stress as well?

I would be grateful for any assistance.

**Tyrhael** · 21/Feb/2007, 04:30 AM

This information can be found in Appendix E of LotR if you have it. Basically, in Quenya and Sindarin the acute accent indicates a long vowel, and in Quenya it also signifies a change in the tone quality of the vowel; it makes it higher and tenser. As for stress, it is sometimes used in Quenya to indicate stress, like in Mindon Eldaliéva (where the normal stress would be Eldalieva if the accent weren't there) and Elentári. For a guide on Sindarin pronunciation (and stress), I would recommend Ardhon Ellammath. Please ask if there're any more questions you have.

**Lothenon** · 22/Feb/2007, 08:33 AM

Basically, in Quenya and Sindarin the acute accent indicates a long vowel, and in Quenya it also signifies a change in the tone quality of the vowel; it makes it higher and tenser.

Regarding e, o, yes. I don't believe this is true for a, i, u (i.e. I am not aware of any suggestion given by Tolkien).

As for stress, it is sometimes used in Quenya to indicate stress, like in Mindon Eldaliéva (where the normal stress would be Eldalieva if the accent weren't there) and Elentári.

What makes you think so? It is of course true that these vowels are stressed, but this only due to their length...
In primitive forms of Common Eldarin or Primitive Quendian Tolkien did use the more normal linguistic notation with accute accent for stress and macron for length, but I don't think he ever did so for Quenya, Sindarin, Telerin etc. (although there are some examples of length marked by macron).

**Aranhael** · 23/Feb/2007, 09:40 AM

In primitive forms of Common Eldarin or Primitive Quendian Tolkien did use the more normal linguistic notation with accute accent for stress and macron for length, but I don't think he ever did so for Quenya, Sindarin, Telerin etc.

He did sometimes, e.g. in Rgeo, where the metre of Namárie is discussed and thus both length and accent marks are of importance. There, Élentā΄ri has both a macron indicating length and an acute indicating stress over the 'a'.

**Tyrhael** · 23/Feb/2007, 10:28 AM

Déjà vu ... Looking back, I think that's the second time you've corrected me on that exact point, Lothenon. I waited a day to see if anyone would respond, and since no one did, I figured I'd put forth what I thought might be correct in the hopes someone would notice it and confirm/deny it. Hopefully it won't take a third time to stick in ...

**Elhath** · 15/Mar/2007, 05:39 PM

Aranhael et al., note that with HTML character 769 you should be able to land the acute accent even above a macron:

[ b ] E l e n t & # 2 5 7 ; & # 7 6 9 ; r i [ / b ] ->
Elentā́ri

**Ikcor** · 27/Mar/2007, 09:03 PM

Hello, I just started learning Elvish and was hoping that someone could check my work.

I started with the task that everyone starts with: getting an Elvish name. I started with my own name (Kevin) and then moved onto my wife and daughter's names (Rochelle and Hayley). For each of us I tried to write the English name in Tengwar (various modes, as you'll see) and then tried to find a suitable Elvish translation. I got a little lost along the way so I don't know if the names I picked were Quenya or Sindarin.

I put my choices and ultimate selections here in this PDF file:

http://blogs.sun.com/kevin/resource/Elvish%20Names.pdf

Hopefully people can read it. I labeled my Tengwar choices as green and translation choices as yellow. Other unused options are white.

The main things I ask that you check are:

- Do the translations I picked mean what I think they mean?
- Is there a better choice from the ones I have listed (or your own)?
- For the Tengwar "Rochelle" I modified it to make the last "e" silent. Is that OK?
- For the Tengwar "Hayley" I had lots of problems understanding the proper use of the "Y". You'll see that my final selection took some artistic license. Did what I did make sense, or am I off in the weeds?

Thank you so much.

**Lothenon** · 28/Mar/2007, 09:00 AM

Hello Ikcor,

Your transcriptions into Tengwar are mostly well done. I only disagree in a few points:
• the "original" transcription of "Hayley" uses yanta, which AFAIK is never found for English y.
• the "original" transcription of "Hayley" in Quenya-spelling does not make very much sense (anna plus y-tehta is never used in this way)
• the "modified" transcription of "Hayley" in Quenya-spelling in fact reads hyalye.
• I generally don't agree with the transcription of English names into Quenya spelling in an orthographic way. If you do want to write it in an Elvish mode I would spell it in an Elvish way that represents the original pronunciation as far as possible (i.e. kevin, heili, rohyel).

The greatest problem with "Rochelle" is the pronunciation of the ch. I guess it is pronounced like sh (which does not exist in Elvish)?
In this case it is plainly up to you whether you like a rather phonetic or rather orthographic spelling, thus whether you write roshel or really rochelle (though I guess Tolkien might in fact have written roshelle).

But you prefer the Elvish translations nevertheless, as it seems, so my two cents:
"Kevin", as far as I know, derives from Irish Ceomhín or something similar in spelling and consists of "kind, gentle, handsome" (as you write) and "birth". Sindarin Beinion would rather mean "Scion of the Handsome". I believe you might combine bain (in the form of bein-, yes) with onnen ("born, the Born One", attested in plural Ebœnnyn, "the Afterborn") or maybe nûn (attested in gwanûn, "twin-born", though I'm not sure where the first n comes from), thus:
Beinonnen or Beinûn.
I'm not sure if I understand Quenya Minyanosto, Vanyanosto, what does the osto stand for? (I only know it as "fortress, city" or something of the like). The Quenya counterpart of both Sindarin onnen, nûn is nóna (cf. apanóna, "afterborn", onóna, "twin-born"), thus maybe:
Minyanóno, Vanyanóno.

I did not find a translation of "Hayley" as something related to "hero", but only "hey clearing" (from Anglosaxon heg leah), originally a place-name...

Concerning "Rochelle" I found two possibilities: Either the one you used, "little rock" (from a place-name in France), or a female Romance form of Germanic hrok (meaning "rest").
Your Sindarin first version lacks some mutations and assimilation (gond tithen > gond dithen > gondithen) and I don't see where the double-n derives from (and I don't know the suffixes/compound words you used on the other two). I would possibly just use a diminutive suffix on "rock", thus: Gondeg, Gœndig (more modern Gonneg, Gennig), or just the Sindarin word for a small stone to which it is easier to apply female suffixes (if you would like to have one, since in the original form there is a very clear one), thus: Sarneth, Sarnel. The Sindarin forms of "rest" are îdh, post and may be suffixed with the same endings (the first becoming ídh).
Your Quenya form seems to come from titta ondo and a sort of a female ending? Seems good to me, though I have never seen the ending. Here also you might simply use the word for "rock" with diminutive ending, thus: Ondinkë (though this ending is only attested on words without final vowels...), which would already represent a female form, ending in -ë.

**Ikcor** · 28/Mar/2007, 01:21 PM

Lothenon,

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply!

All of my "original" Tengwar transcriptions just came from the "online" version linked to from so many sites: http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/ott/start.php I just entered the English names using "english" mode. I could tell that the Tengwar for "Hayley" was probably incorrect, but I couldn't figure out the best way. I also did try many phonetic versions, but soon got in over my head, so I'm grateful for your suggestion of Heili. Just of the sake of curiosity, I wonder if you, or anyone, has any suggestion for an orthographic transcription of "Hayley." Perhaps it's just too non-Elvish a word. I might use the Mode of Beleriand, but I think I like Heili.

On the subject of "Hayley," you are correct the the English origin is "hay meadow" but the Norse translation, from Haela, means hero. Considering all that she went through just to be born, she is our little hero. I preferred Thalionwen over Calloniel because it seemed that Thalionwen was more heroic through action and Calloniel was heroic through title. Thoughts?

Thanks again!

p.s. I got the translations for "Kevin" from the Coucnil of Elrond Quenya Name Finder: http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Semantics&file =index&options=SemanticsMenu&volume=5

**Taurëllo** · 28/Mar/2007, 05:40 PM

This question has probably been asked before, but it has been bugging me lately.

How exactly are you supposed to pronounce Cirdan? most times it is spelled with an accent over the "i" but I don;t know if its a long "I" like in find or if it sounds like the "i" in the word "fin" Anyone know for sure?

**Ikcor** · 28/Mar/2007, 09:44 PM

Remembering that I am the guy who can't even spell his own name without help...

My understanding is that both i and í are pronounced as short vowels, but í just lasts longer (as opposed to the long vowel sound). i.e. Keer-don or Keeer-don. but never Kire-don.

http://tolklang.quettar.org/pronmid/pronguide.html
http://www.ellammath.de/pronunciation.htm

**Lothenon** · 30/Mar/2007, 07:01 AM

Just of the sake of curiosity, I wonder if you, or anyone, has any suggestion for an orthographic transcription of "Hayley."

In what mode?

On the subject of "Hayley," you are correct the the English origin is "hay meadow" but the Norse translation, from Haela, means hero. Considering all that she went through just to be born, she is our little hero. I preferred Thalionwen over Calloniel because it seemed that Thalionwen was more heroic through action and Calloniel was heroic through title. Thoughts?

That's a nice point then.
Nevertheless your version are (I dare say) impossible, since you put a female agental ending onto a male one. I would rather suggest replacing -on by a female suffix, thus: Cal(l)eth, Cellil, Celiel Calwen, Thalieth, Thaliel, Thalwen.

Concerning pronunciation of i, í, Círdan:
The vowels i is always to be pronounced as in English "machine" (that is Tolkien's own example), or as in "we", "seize" or whatever way there might exist in English to transcribe this sound. But this discription is only concerning the vowel quality, not the length.
That means that i with an accent above is to be pronounced exactly as in "machine", while i without accent is the same sound but only as short as the vowel in "fit" (if you listen carefully you'll hear that the vowels in "fit" and "machine" have a different quality, the first is more "open").
The most correct representation of Círdan's name certainly is that with the long vowel (since "ship(s)" is cîr, not cir) and the pronunciation is in English orthography possibly best represented as keer-dahn (where "ah" represents the sound of a in "father", but also shorter. This is always the case in Sindarin, all vowels exist in long and short forms but the sound itself is never changed by that).

**Ikcor** · 30/Mar/2007, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Lothenon

Just of the sake of curiosity, I wonder if you, or anyone, has any suggestion for an orthographic transcription of "Hayley."

In what mode?

At this point I'd settle for any! :) Quenya mode would be preferred.

I was looking closer at the English transcription mode and it still wasn't clear. The rules for diphthongs (ay, ai, ey) have few examples. Likewise, the rules for (English) "Y" were also a bit vague. There seemed to be many options and it all boiled down to personal choice.

Thanks again for the corrected translations of "hero."

**Lothenon** · 31/Mar/2007, 05:59 AM

EDIT: O god, wait a second, what was I thinking about? Sheesh, this is of course the oposite of what you asked for...(phonetic transcription into Elvish modes)... The normal rather orthographic spelling of English would use anna for y and place the tehtar for a, e above them.

**Ikcor** · 31/Mar/2007, 01:23 PM

No worries, Lothenon. You've been most helpful! Thanks so much.

**KingofMirkwood** · 06/Apr/2007, 02:46 PM

Can someone tell me more about the Men of Dale, and what they spoke. I have heard before that they spoke Westron and other times I have heard that they spoke their own type of dialect.

Also what did Tolkien use as a model for their language, or did he not use a model and left it undeveloped like Dwarvish and such. At the top of the page it is said it is from Norse.... Could someone elaborate this for me?

**Tyrhael** · 06/Apr/2007, 03:11 PM

I'm not sure whether the Men of Dale (the Bardings) spoke Westron or a related dialect (like the Hobbits spoke a dialect of Westron, though it was still understandable by other Westron users). But as for their names, Tolkien wrote "The language of Dale and the Long Lake would, if it appeared, be represented as more or less Scandinavian in character; but it is only represented by a few names, especially those of the Dwarves that came from that region. These are all Old Norse Dwarf-names" in Letters.

However, the Scandinavian aspect and use of Old Norse for their names was only considered to be an external translation of their real language and names, just like Mercian Old English was used as a translation of the actual language of Rohan. For example, the Dalish name for the dragon Smaug was actually Trâgu in their language, which is represented by "Smaug" in Tolkien's "translation" of the Red Book of Westmarch — just like Tolkien used "Sméagol" to represent the name "Trahald" in the northern language of the Mannish language from near the Gladden. But at any case the languages or dialects of the Hobbits, of the Riddermark, and of Dale seem to be somewhat related, as the stem *trag- / *trah- means "to squeeze through a hole" in both (which was represented by derivatives of the primitive Germanic verb smugan in Tolkien's English translation of the Red Book).

At any rate, the languages of Dale, of Rohan, and of certain Northern Mannish elements in the Shire dialect were related (probably from their time of coexistence in the Vales of Anduin), though perhaps only bits and pieces of those occurred in Westron, which was a language evolved from the Marachian dialect of Adûnaic (the common tongue of Númenor) and influenced by Sindarin. I guess this because when Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas (with Gandalf) went to Rohan, they couldn't understand the language of that country, though they knew Westron. Perhaps they were still related, since Tolkien used Germanic languages to represent their languages (Mercian Old English for Rohanese, English for Westron, dialectal English for the Shire's rustic dialect of Westron, formal English for Gondor's archaic Westron, Old Norse for Dale, Gothic for the ancestors of the Rohirrim and the Northmen). But that doesn't answer whether they were separate languages or dialects — the Hobbits wouldn't be able to understand Rohanese, though their languages shared cognates.

**Nyxs Slave** · 23/Apr/2007, 04:52 PM

Does anyone know of either a good writing program for windows, a good dictionary that one can learn oneself with, or lastly is it possible to get tutored in elvish by one who knows it fluently? i would like to do all of these things, but will settle for what i can get. and i am not computer savvy.

**Tyrhael** · 24/Apr/2007, 06:29 AM

Elenaro — for Quenya dictionaries/wordlists, look here. For a Sindarin wordlist, look here. For courses and articles, look here. For pronunciation guides, look here. For more good sites related to Elvish, look here and here. For articles on the philosophy of learning Elvish languages, look here, here, and here.

What you probably have to decide first is what elvish language you want
to learn. I'm going to move this post to the Language Help Desk where
it would be more suitable than in Elvish News.

**Zerani** · 07/May/2007, 05:52 AM

I didn't think this really merited it's own topic, so I hope it's alright to postit in here.

In the 'Notes on Pronunciation' in the CoH it says that "E at the end of words is always pronounced as a distinct vowel, and in this position is written ë" ... am I right in thinking that applying it to the name Oromë,it means the word has three syllables when spoken?

**Tyrhael** · 07/May/2007, 10:10 AM

Yes, you are correct. In this case, Oromë, being a Quenya word, is three syllables, with a trilled R, E as in "bed", and O as in "for". There's a clip of Tolkien himself pronouncing Oromë, but we can tell he's not a native Elvish speaker, as he pronounces Valar with æ as in "cat", which he specifically says not to do in his guides to Elvish pronunciation.

**Zerani** · 07/May/2007, 11:17 AM

Fantastic, thanks so much for your help Tyrhael!

**Lindir of Lindon** · 10/May/2007, 10:26 AM

I would appreciate if someone who understands these things could tell me what is the meaning of the name Celegorm (I came up with "silver circle", since Cormallen means "golden circle"). Also, I'm thinking of changing the name of my characters' father, which is Celebgir (it should mean "silver ship"), because I don't think b and g sound that good when pronounced one after another, and also because there is no example of g after b in any of the elven names from LotR and Silmarillion. So if you could give me an alternative for a name meaning "silver ship" I would be most grateful (I used the words "celeb" and "cir"). Thanks.

**Tyrhael** · 10/May/2007, 02:44 PM

Lindir Celebgirion, Celegorm is an adaptation of Quenya Tyelcormo "hasty-riser" into Sindarin phonology. It could also be analyzed as containing celeg "swift, agile" (compare Q. tyelca) and gormh / gorf "impetus, vigour" (cognate to Q. ormë "haste, violence, wrath"). It's actually a North Sindarin name — the West Sindarin form would be Celegorf (VT41:10). It was given to him "Possibly in reference
to his quick temper, and his habit of leaping up when suddenly angered" (PM).

As for "silver ship", if you don't mind using "grey", there's mith, mithren, and thin(n) — you could have Cirmith, Cirvith, Mithrengir, Thingir, Cirthin(n), etc. Though I'm not sure about the role of cair "ship" in compounds. If you want to stick with celeb, there's Cirgeleb.

**Eugenides** · 11/May/2007, 12:19 PM

I was wondering if someone could help me with this...
I'm writing the screenplay for a home movie (based on Middle Earth) I'm directing, and at one point a character is cursing their enemy (in Sindarin)
It took forever, but I finally came up with something vaguely similar to what I wanted. It reads:

...They have voices of their own and shall not be silenced by a few (and then in Sindarin)
Um naith dol. Tolo dangen, morn lyg o coth! Ava brona! Eil tim fir naur gwann o Fangorn! Hul!

And the caption will be: Evil spearpoint heads! Come [be] slain, black snake of enmity! [You] will not survive! It is raining sparks and [you will] die [in the] fire, O dead of Fangorn! (Battle cry)

I couldn't find Sindarin words for the ones in [ ]. The character who is cursing their enemy is an elf lord, and I don't think this phrase does him justice. Please help!

**Lindir of Lindon** · 11/May/2007, 12:40 PM

Wow, I was totally wrong considering Celegorm, so thanks for clearing that up for me Tyrhael. I was surprised to read that there is a difference between North Sindarin and West Sindarin. I wasn't aware there is more than one Sindarin form. Your suggestions for the name are all good, and grey instead of silver sounds good for me (I liked Thingir the most), but just in case that I decide to keep the name as it is, would that be wrong?

**Tyrhael** · 11/May/2007, 01:01 PM

Eugenides: naith is rather a spear-shaped formation; I would use ecthel pl. *ecthili. If you mean heads of the spearpoints, it's redundant and you can just use *ecthili. The adjective um goes after the noun, and is pluralized as ym. Dôl would be pluralized as dýl. I would add no "be (imperative)", and morn goes after lýg, and is lenited to vorn. "Of enmity" would use en "of" and be mutated to en-goth. "Sparks" is rather tint, and "you will die" is gwannatha, "within the fire" would be ne naur. I think "dead" would be pluralized as gwainn, and hul is hûl.

So Ecthili ym! Tolo no dangen, lýg vorn en-goth! Ava brona! Eil tint a gwannatha ne naur, gwainn o Fangorn! Hûl!

**Eugenides** · 11/May/2007, 08:12 PM

Thanks, Tyrhael. That should help a lot!

**Aranel Carnilino** · 12/May/2007, 11:57 AM

A few days ago, I was looking up the colors in elvish and was surprised to find no word for pink (I used the dictionary you suggested I download). So, is that true? Is there really no elvish word for the color "pink"?

**Taurëllo** · 15/May/2007, 05:38 PM

I just wanted to ask which of the Quenya courses referred to above is the most accurate and easiest to understand? I am interested in trying to learn Quenya, but I want to be sure that I am learning the language as Tolkien actually formulated it, or at least as closely as possible.

**Tyrhael** · 16/May/2007, 08:59 AM

Sorry I haven't been around.

Aranel, as far as I know, there's no published/attested word for "pink" in later Quenya, though there is one in the Qenya Lexicon from the 1920s (though I don't have that so I can't find out what the word is).

Taurëllo, the course I would recommend is Thorsten Renk's Quetin i Lambë Eldaiva on his site Parma Tyelpelassiva. You'll find the downloadable course there, as well as some useful articles. If you ever have any questions about the course, want to discuss or clarify something, etc. you can ask it in this forum.

**Aelindis** · 16/May/2007, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrhael

as far as I know, there's no published/attested word for "pink" in later Quenya, though there is one in the Qenya Lexicon from the 1920s

Actually, the quote from the Qenya Lexicon refers back to the Gnomish Lexicon:
crintha (cp. carn.) "rosy, pink"; crinthammos [<< crinthambos], "red breast, robin" (PE#11:27).

**Tyrhael** · 16/May/2007, 09:31 AM

Thanks, Aelindis!

**Taurëllo** · 16/May/2007, 05:47 PM

Tyrhael: Thanks! Im going to check out the site now.

**Harlindon** · 17/May/2007, 05:54 PM

Has anyone found anything of importance(concerning languages of Middle Earth) in Children Of Hurin? As far as know, it has no 'new' linguistic information, but I could have missed something.

**Tyrhael** · 18/May/2007, 09:59 AM

Harlindon: Not that I know of — and I was rather hoping that an English prose line equivalent to the Túrin wrapper would show up. But Elfling 34064 and 34065 might answer your questions. ;)

**Hanina** · 19/May/2007, 10:42 AM

I made up these (almost)Poems and tried to put it in elvish but i'm sure that i did not get it right.

I Hear the singing of the ravines, the woods. Pools shine in the moonlight, it feel as if the starry host, all the stars of heaven are raining down. The Beautiful voices of the Elven folk lifted in song, dreaming of the sea wind.

Hear i glired of i ress, i eryn. lin (s)sila in lthil light. It feels as if elenath are eliad dad. I bein voices of i Edhel folk lifted or in glinn, dreaming of i gaear gwaew.

pleas help me out!

**Hanina** · 19/May/2007, 10:51 AM

Poem 2

The harper plays the harp, as the wispy voices of the Elven folk lifted in song. The woods echo East, West, North, South with the song of the starry host. The wind battles the gray mist above the pool. Under the crescent moon, starlight streams in the window of the lone tower to caress the dreamer. One voice rises above the glorious song. A song like copper-colored bells above the sea, floating in harmony with the land.

I talagand gannado, as i wispy voices of i Edhel folk lifted in glinn. I eryn echo Amrun, Annun forod, harad with i glinn (s) of i elenath. I gwaew dagro i hith or ael. No i curan, gil (Light) streems in i henneth of i lone mindon to caress i dreamer. Min voice rises or i glorious glinn. A glinn like gaer nell (s) or i gaear, loda (ing) in harmoney with i dor.

Thank you for any help you can give!

**Tyrhael** · 19/May/2007, 03:17 PM

Poem #1:
- - - - -
I hear the singing of the ravines, the woods.
Hear i glired of i ress, i eryn.

The closest to "hear" we have are lasto "listen", lathro / lathrado "listen in, eavesdrop". Since lathron from lathro is glossed "hearer, listener, eavesdropper", we may simply use lathro for "hear", which is from a stem LAS. Or, in the Quenya poem Markirya, we find a verb #hlar- "hear" from S-LAS, which is a variant stem. Since we have lasto "listen" from LAS but lhaw "ears (dual)" from S-LAS both in LotR, it's safe to say that both stems coexisted at once.

If you wanted to reconstruct a verb for "hear" from Quenya #hlar-, you'd get Sindarin *lhas-, but in all likelihood a suffix would have to be added to make *lhasta-. But it's probably easier just to use *lathro.

This would make lathron "I hear". Gliri is "to sing, trill, recite a poem" — alternatives are linno "to sing" and lirio "to sing". The gerunds of each would be glired, linnad, and liriad, respectively. I "the" would cause glired to mutate to i 'lired.

Now, "of the" would be en- or in-. "Ravine" is riss, with the same plural. The combination of n-r with en-riss would cause nasal mutation, making it into edh-riss.

Now, "the woods" might need a silent "of" as well, so en-eryn.

This would make Lathron i 'lired edh-riss, en-eryn.
- - - - -
Pools shine in the moonlight,
Lin (s)sila in Ithil light.

"Pools" would be lîn or aelin. "Shine" in this case would be the verb síla, which takes an ending -r for plural "pools", making sílar.

There are several attested words for "in", one being vi (though we don't know if that's its real form or if it's mi mutated), and another being ned (which may or may not instead mean "one more, another"). Due to this confusion, I feel the best bet would be to use the prefix di- "beneath" (though it's also glossed "in" in the 1930s Etymologies).

Now for "moonlight". As you know, "moon" is Ithil. There is no attested word for "moonlight", so we could use glaw "radiance" (related to Quenya kala "light") to make di-'law Ithil "beneath the Moon's radiance", or we could employ glân "bright, shining white" to make di-Ithil 'lân "beneath the brightly shining Moon".

That makes Lîn sílar di-'law Ithil.
- - - - -
It feels as if all the starry host, all the stars of heaven, are raining down.
It feels as if elenath are eliad dad.

"Feel" could here be represented by thio "to seem, appear". "As if" could be sui "as, like" (though it compares things, whereas be is merely "according to"). "All" (plural) could be pain, which lenited would be bain.

"Starry host" could be elenath. However, the verb for "rain" is impersonal — eil means "it is raining" ... I suppose we could use it as the aorist "rain" to make elenath bain eil "all the starry host rains", as I can't think of any other alternative save to construct a verb *rosta from ROS "distill, drip". That might actually work better. As for "down", I'm not sure if adding it would be an Anglicism. If not, I'd attach it in front of the verb as a prefix, making elenath bain dadrostar "all the starry host is raining down".

This makes Thia sui elenath bain dadrostar.
- - - - -
The beautiful voices of the Elven folk lifted in song
I bein voices of i Edhel folk lifted or in glinn

For "voices" here I'd use lamath "echoing voices" since I'm not aware of a cognate of Quenya óma "voice". The adjective follows the noun it describes, so that'd be i lamath vain. (Bein was the Exilic Noldorin form — bain is Sindarin, and then it would be lenited to vain). "Elven folk" would be Edhelrim or Eledhrim with "Elf" and rim "host". This would make en-Eledhrim or in-Eledhrim. "Lift" would be holer from heli "to lift", sg. past tense haul (though I think that's transitive) or eriasser (from erias, pa.t. of erio "to rise"), and "in song" might be na 'lîr or na laer with na "with, by" and glîr "song, poem, lay" or laer "song, long lay".

This would make I lamath vain en-Eledhrim eriasser na 'lîr.
- - - - - -
dreaming of the sea wind.
dreaming of i gaear gwaew.

"To dream" is oltha-, so the present participle would be olthol. "About, concerning" is o. Now, "sea" is aear or gaear. Tolkien kept changing his mind about whether there was a g- or not. In LotR, it doesn't have the g-, so I'd say o Haear because an H is prefixed to a word following o if it ends in a vowel.

However, "the sea wind" would here in fact be represented with "the wind [of the] sea", with "wind" in front, so it'd be i 'waew aear, with gwaew leniting to 'waew because of i "the". However, you could make a compound aearwaew, making o haearwaew.

That'd make:
Lathron i 'lired edh-riss, en-eryn. Lîn sílar di-'law Ithil, thia sui elenath bain dadrostar. I lamath bain en-Eledhrim eriasser na 'lîr, olthol o haearwaew.

I'll look at Poem #2 later.

Edit: just realized i lamath bain en-Eledhrim should be i lamath vain en-Eledhrim!

**Hanina** · 19/May/2007, 04:41 PM

THANK YOU!!!
i like making up weird poem like things, and my sister had a list of some Elvish words...hence what happend...
Thank you for the proper translation!

God bless!

**Tyrhael** · 20/May/2007, 02:21 PM

Oh, I see. For a better "list of some Elvish words", there's a Sindarin one here, and Quenya here.

Anyway, onto a line-by-line analysis of Poem #2:

- - - -
The harper plays the harp, as the wispy voices of the Elven folk lifted in song.
I talagand gannado, as i wispy voices of i Edhel folk lifted in glinn.

Anyway, with talagand, in Third Age Sindarin the cluster -nd changed into -nn and then into -n, so we would have talagan. Additionally, the article i "the" causes talagan to lenite (lenition is "soft mutation") into i dalagan. The infinitive "to play a harp" is ganno or gannado, but the actual present tense is gannada.

For the next part, I'd again use sui "as", i lamath "the echoing voices", en-Eledhrim "of the Elven-folk", and eriasser na 'lîr "rose with song" (compare my translation and comments on Poem #1). For "wispy" the closest thing I can think of is thuiol "breathy, breathing" from thuio "to breathe".

So I dalagan gannado, sui i lamath thuiol en-Eledhrim eriasser na 'lîr.
- - - - -
The woods echo East, West, North, South with the song of the starry host.
I eryn echo Amrun, Annun forod, harad with i glinn (s) of i elenath.

The plural for "the" is in, so in eryn. "Echo" comes from the root GLAM, where we find glamor "echo" and glamren "echoing". But the verb we'd expect to mean "to echo", glavro, instead means "to babble". So, instead of using that, I'd try to use "make echoes", which would be cerir 'leimor (with lenition and a special plural). Amrun is Amrûn, Annun is Annûn, and I'd use trî "through" to make trî Amrûn, Annûn, Forod, a Harad using a "and". "With the song of the starry host" would be na 'lîr en-elenath.

So In eryn cerir 'leimor trî Amrûn, Annûn, Forod, a Harad na 'lîr en-elenath.
- - - -
The wind battles the gray mist above the pool.
I gwaew dagro i hith or ael.

I "the" here would mutate i gwaew to i 'waew, and the present tense of dagro "to battle" is dagra. Hîth "mist" would become i chîth, and "grey" is either mith, mithren, or thinn, so it'd make i chîth mithren. "Above the" is or "above" plus -in "the, making örin into erin.

This makes I 'waew dagra i chîth mithren erin ael.
- - - -
Under the crescent moon, starlight streams in the window of the lone tower to caress the dreamer.
No i curan, gil (Light) streems in i henneth of i lone mindon to caress i dreamer.

"Under the" would be nuin, and "crescent moon" is cúron. With a type of mutation, we get nuin gúron. "Starlight" is gilgalad, and "streams in" might be siria na "flows into". "Window" is henneth, and mutation makes siria na chenneth. "Tower" is mindon, minas, or barad but the latter two represent a tower within a city or fortress, so for "lone tower" mindon is the best. "Lone" might be represented by ereb "isolated, lonely" or erui "single, alone". But the latter was incorrectly used by the Gondorians to mean "first", so mindon ereb is better.

"To caress" might be able to be represented by plada- "feel with the hand" or matho "stroke, feel, handle, wield" but the latter was confused with the verb for "wield a weapon, fight" so I'd go with the former. "In order to caress" might be a phladad from an "for" and pladad "caressing".

"Dreamer" might be *olthron, so:

Nuin gúron, gilgalad siria na chenneth e-mindon ereb a phladad i olthron.
- - - - -
One voice rises above the glorious song.
Min voice rises or i glorious glinn.

"One" as "a single" rather than "one (the first in a sequence)" would be er, and "voice" might best be represented by lam "tongue, voice", "rises" would be eria, "above the" would be erin, "glorious" would be aglareb, and "song" would be glîr.

So, Er lam eria erin glîr aglareb.
- - - -
A song like copper-colored bells above the sea, floating in harmony with the land.
A glinn like gaer nell (s) or i gaear, loda (ing) in harmony with i dor.

Like before, "song" is glîr. There is no word for "a"; it is simply represented by showing the noun without the article "the" i. "Like" here would be sui, "bell" is nell pl. nill (or nellath), and gaer would become 'aer. "Above the" would again be erin, and "sea" aear (see my notes for Poem #1). "To float" is loda, and the present participle would be lodol. "Harmony" is hard to translate; I have no idea what to do — can't even think of a similar word. Constructions with "together" are failing me ... perhaps just "floating across the land", though it changes the meaning? That would be athar dôr.

So:
I dalagan gannada, sui lamath thuiol en-Eledhrim eriasser na 'lîr. In eryn cerir 'leimor trî Amrûn, Annûn, Forod, a Harad na 'lîr en-elenath. I 'waew dagra i chîth mithren erin ael. Nuin gúron, gilgalad siria na chenneth e-mindon ereb a phladad i olthron. Er lam eria erin glîr aglareb. Glîr sui nellath 'aer erin aear, lodol athar dôr.

Though the last sentence is a fragment describing "song".

**Hanina** · 21/May/2007, 05:55 PM

Thanks Again!

(this poem like thing came out a little weird and random)
But Thank you for taking the time!

**Eugenides** · 22/May/2007, 05:05 AM

I need another phrase for my movie. Here it is:

Hungry?! I once went fourscore days without a morsel while traversing thousands of leagues through dragon infested lands! People these days...

[Hungry?! I once] avod canad[score] erin pen [a morsel while] athrada meneg o daur tri amlug [infested] gardh! Gwaith [these] erin...

**Tyrhael** · 24/May/2007, 09:12 AM

There's no known word for "hungry", but there is for "thirsty". For "I once" the best I can do is "a time ago". As for avod = went, where did you find it? I've never seen it before, but I analyze it as creating a past tense from BAT as a-bât with prefixing the root vowel and lengthening it, but I think nasal infixion would be a better fit for the past tense. In any case, as *bedi or *bado are not attested, and furthermore, I think "went" here is an Anglicism; something like "I once was fourscore days without a morsel". Though "was" isn't known either, so perhaps a verb is needed after all. *bant would produce *bennin for 1st. sg. pa.t. ... There's no word for "score", so eighty would be tolchaen, "day" is aur and pluralized as *oer, *aesod is formed from aes "cooked food, meat" and a diminutive or singular suffix ... That makes:

Faug, ar i mbaur am-maded? Lû io bennin tolchaen oer pen-aesod, athradol menig doer trî 'erdh amlugrim! Gwaith ned lui hin ...

Thirsty, and [with] the need to eat? A time ago I went eighty days without the smallest piece of food, traversing thousands of leagues through realms of dragon-crowds! People in these times ...

**Eugenides** · 24/May/2007, 12:33 PM

Thanks a million, Tyrhael! The phrase sounds even cooler like that!
I found the word avod off a Sindarin word list (which has turned out not to be very accurate) Oh, well.

**Harlindon** · 24/May/2007, 01:53 PM

Tyrhael:Is there a place for suggestions for the Language Forum?

**Tyrhael** · 24/May/2007, 02:23 PM

What kind of suggestions, Harlindon? You mean suggestions on the future of the Language forum, or what you'd like to see, or any ideas you have? In any case, go ahead.

**Harlindon** · 24/May/2007, 02:41 PM

Tyrhael: I meant suggestion's of the 'idea' type. Well, here goes - In Thorsten's old house, he had a thread running whose pupose was to work on translating the Valaquenta into Neo-Sindarin. Aelindis and I took part in it for a little while (after Thorsten left however) and it was interesting, fun, andconstructive. Do you think that a thread like this is a good idea for the Middle Earth Languages forum?(notnecessarily the Valaquenta, it could beanything; Beren and Luthien etc.) I think it may urge some people to post more in the Language forum. What do you think about this? (I'm open to criticism)

**Tyrhael** · 24/May/2007, 03:42 PM

>Do you think that a thread like this is a good idea for the Middle Earth Languages forum?

I'd enjoy something like that, and I hope it would draw more attention to the Language forum as well as provide the 'regulars' a more interesting pursuit — our goals are compatible. I remember Thorsten's old house (you can look at it in the Archives), though I never participated in it, as far as I remember — I discovered houses a bit too late, after they started being sold off for the transition to the New Plaza. Anyway, threads like that would be welcome, neo-Quenya or neo-Sindarin (indeed I'm a bit rusty in the latter, and could use practice) — and it wouldn't necessarily even have to be translations from Tolkien — I've seen people do translations of hymns, of quotes from the Bible, poetry, etc. Any more ideas?

I must admit, I haven't been thinking of threads like that (not that it's not a good idea), since most of my energy has been spent on preparations for the Gateway to Sindarin discussion thread (I've started a thread and worked on the opening posts, made a To-Do list, sketched out some ideas — but the thread is temporarily hidden until the planning is complete and the discussion is initiated).

**Harlindon** · 24/May/2007, 03:50 PM

Tyrhael: By all means, continue with whatever you have been planning. This was an idea to as you put it "provide regulars with a more intersting pursuit", but a Gateway discussion would certainly do that and more

This is just something to throw on the back burner until its needed

**Harlindon** · 25/May/2007, 04:22 PM

Which Quenya course (Ardalamnion's or Thorsten's) would someone who's studied Quenya recommend for someone who has studied Sindarin?(me

)

**Tyrhael** · 25/May/2007, 05:29 PM

I find Helge's to be a bit technical at times and a bit overpowering — personally, I think Thorsten's is easier to follow and at times more accurate. Though you should augment it with his articles at Parma Tyelpelassiva. If you have any questions, you can ask here.

**Harlindon** · 25/May/2007, 05:39 PM

Thanks Tyrhael! I'll be sure to ask any questions I come across, although I don't plan to really start a course until I'm out of school for the summer. (I plan on taking your advice and using Thorsten's course

**Harlindon** · 28/May/2007, 05:58 PM

Another suggestion: I was also thinking of a thread for "poking fun at" Tolkien's languages. Something along the same lines as THIS. For a different kind of example, the compound forlorn in Sindarin means northern haven, while in english it means 'forsaken' or 'sad and lonely'. I don't know, it probably wouldn't be a long running thread, but its just something to throw out there

**Tyrhael** · 29/May/2007, 12:55 PM

Good suggestions, again! I just wrote a lengthy post, changed my mind, erased it, edited it, and rewrote it again.

The gist was, it comes down to whether you want to run the threads yourself or not. If so, by all means go ahead with them.

If not, I could make a banner and opening post for thread idea #1 (I don't yet have the time to start both at once, though I can start the first one (for now, anyway) — maybe a bit later to open the second one) and put them in a hidden thread, then give you the link so that you could give feedback before it was revealed to the public. It would be opened after I got feedback and the first piece to translate (and whether it's neo-S or neo-Q) would be decided on.

So, which option?

**Harlindon** · 29/May/2007, 01:09 PM

Tyrhael: I'd be glad to run it. I'm already working on an opening post. Do you want me to post it here when I'm finished to make sure we're both thinking the same thing, or should I just go ahead and make a new thread?

**Harlindon** · 29/May/2007, 01:37 PM

Tyrhael: Here's an opening post I made. I'd like you're honest opinion (if you don't mind)_____________________________________________ _________________________________________

Let's have some fun with Tolkien's languages! The purpose of this thread is to post ambiguous or funny cognates, phrases, etc. and have a good time. For examples, you can look HERE or at the examples given in this post:

-In Sindarin the compound Forlorn means 'northern haven'; however, in english, it means 'sad and lonely' or 'forsaken'!

-If you are an elven soldier, and your commander tells you

"Echado megyl lîn laeg"

Will you make your swords 'sharp' or 'fresh and green'?

So, let's see where cognates and homophones cause problems in Tolkien's languages!

**Tyrhael** · 29/May/2007, 03:03 PM

It looks fine to me!

**Amdar Melwasul** · 01/Jun/2007, 03:11 PM

'Quel re! Lle uma quel. Lasts lalamithamin. Lle naa haran e' nausalle. Amin sinta lle?
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<DIV align=left>
<CENTER></CENTER>

**Tyrhael** · 01/Jun/2007, 04:26 PM

Mr. Froto, the language you're using is not Tolkien's Elvish, but that of the Grey Company, a roleplaying guild who created a language loosely based on Tolkien's, but with simplified and Anglicized grammar.

Their Language FAQ has this to say: "When J.R.R. Tolkien wrote the setting for
the Lord of the Rings he crafted an entire world to go with it. Included
in that world were the grammatical structure and a rudimentary dictionary
for a number of Elven Tongues. Since we roleplay Elves online, we took
that dictionary, simplified the grammatical structure and expanded the
dictionary heavily. It is not cannon Elven as Tolkien wrote it,
simply our own adaptation. Which we like better. Thank you very much."

As this forum is for the discussion of Tolkien's invented languages and scripts, I've moved this to the Help Desk. If you are interested in learning bits of Tolkien's Elvish, we can point out some helpful links.

**Aranhael** · 02/Jun/2007, 10:08 AM

>It is not cannon Elven as Tolkien wrote it

Sure, it doesn't quite match the firepower of the original. (sorry

)

**Aelindis** · 03/Jun/2007, 01:11 AM

> Sure, it doesn't quite match the firepower of the original.

**Harlindon** · 10/Jun/2007, 02:52 PM

Well, I was looking in the Eymologies today (because of a post made by Tyrhael(here)) and found under NAK- "Ancalagon "Biting Storm", dragon-name [áLAK]." Yet the Silmarillion implies that the name means "rushing jaws". Can anyone explain this discrepancy?(is it a discrepancy?)

**Tyrhael** · 10/Jun/2007, 03:15 PM

I too have wondered about that, but I can't find anywhere else with "Rushing Jaws" save secondary sources like encyclopedias. Indeed, I prefer "Biting Storm", since all the Silm. Index says is that the second part comes from alak- "rushing". In the Etymologies, the second element does indeed come from ÁLAK "rushing", which has the derivative alagos "storm of wind". So the 2nd part being from "rushing" and also "storm" isn't contradictory. As for the first element, ÁNAK and NAK have Q. anca "jaw", N. anc, cf. Ancalagon, but it is still glossed as "Biting-storm". So since it isn't explicitly glossed "Rushing-jaws", I would go with "Biting-storm", though many secondary sources decide otherwise.

**Harlindon** · 10/Jun/2007, 03:42 PM

Tyrhael: I agree.(about preferring 'biting-storm')That's why I asked. Why list the definition as the implied 'rushing jaws' when we are told that it really means 'biting-storm'

**Harlindon** · 10/Jun/2007, 04:14 PM

Question: Where does the Sindarin word laer (summer) come from? Salo lists it as coming from the rootLAJ (which would be LAY in the Etymologies, cf. introduction to the etymologies) However, I can't seem to find that root under LAY or LAJ in my copy of LR. Can someone explain this? Was it appended in a VT issue?

The reason I ask has to do with the meaning of ú-laer / úlaer, which I thought until recently meant 'un-light' but apparently doesn't?

**Tyrhael** · 10/Jun/2007, 04:39 PM

We have Q. lairë "summer" from VT45:26 in a root (LAYA) not included in the published Etymologies of the 30s, as well as LAY with lairë from Letter #211. Additionally, the Sindarin cognate is given as laer in App. D of LotR. As for Úlairi, there's no known meaning or derivation, though I have seen many theories, from "the Unliving Ones" from LAYA to something from ÚLUG and DAY, to "the Unholy Ones".

**Harlindon** · 10/Jun/2007, 05:43 PM

Thanks Tyrhael!

**Harlindon** · 27/Jun/2007, 08:41 PM

Patrick Wynne mentions a 'computer search' of the eymologies in a recent post on Lambengolmor. I've never really thought about it before, but is this sort of thing accessible by the whole public, or is it something private, that Wynne has on his computer? (heres the LINK < to the post) (I'm assuming its a private thing, as that would probably violate a lot of copyright laws, but there's no harm asking)

**Tyrhael** · 28/Jun/2007, 02:38 AM

This would have to be a private thing, as he is one of the editors of Vinyar Tengwar (it was Carl Hostetter and Patrick Wynne who did the Addenda and Corrigenda part of the Etymologies in VT45-6). It is definitely not accessible by the public — I have heard of illegal eBooks of some Vinyar Tengwar issues (which I'm not condoning, let alone linking to), but even those were scans rather than searchable type.

**Harlindon** · 28/Jun/2007, 03:26 PM

Thanks Tyrhael! That's got to be a really useful tool!

Arweniel* · 29/Jun/2007, 03:10 AM

Hi guys - I have a translation question for you. We are having a IC wedding soon in Imladris and would like to have a flower girl in the bridal party. Could you please give some suggestions for what we could call her? 'Flower girl' does not sound very ME.

**Lindir of Lindon** · 29/Jun/2007, 11:03 AM

A short question; is Elda singular form of Eldar, no matter if you're talking about male or female?<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

**Harlindon** · 29/Jun/2007, 11:11 AM

Lindir: Thorsten Renk and Hege Fauskanger both suggest that elda is the singular form of eldar, regardless of gender.

Arweniel: Do you want names for flowers, a name that has to do with flowers, or just an elvish name? ( I'm sure Tyrhael can help you out with this aftercompiling his Gnomish Botany!)

**Tyrhael** · 29/Jun/2007, 03:29 PM

Arweniel: Do you have any idea what language you want it in? I think the normal function of a flower girl in a wedding is to spread flower petals or something like that — what's her function going to be at your wedding? And you want a name to describe that function?

Arweniel* · 04/Jul/2007, 05:01 AM

Tyrhael - it is going to be a very formal wedding, so I guess quenyan? (sp?) Would that be right? The bride says that yes, she will be spreading flower petals and her role will be much like a role in a human wedding. She just doesn't want to use the term 'flower girl' as it sounds too human.

**Tyrhael** · 04/Jul/2007, 10:24 AM

I'm having trouble finding a word for "spread", as the words for that mean it in the sense of "extend, expand, stretch wide". There's panya-, but that's more "fix, set in place" than spread loosely. Perhaps something with sen- "let loose, free, let go"? Then lotsë "small single flower" could be prefixed, and I would use an feminine agentive suffix from here to make lotsë + sen- + suffix. The first two could possibly undergo "haplology" — that is, to lose one of the identical sounds, making lotsen-. Some suffixes could be -ë, -ië, -issë, -indë, so here are your options:

Lotsenë, Lotsenië, Lotsenissë, Lotsenindë. I've underlined the syllable that would be stressed — if you're planning on speaking these, the O is as in English "for", the E (and ë) as in "bed", the I as in "sick", etc. -ië is two sounds (I as in machine and E) said separately, not blended. Where I've underlined two syllables for stress, the second one is emphasized more.

**Lady d`Ecthelion** · 06/Aug/2007, 09:10 PM

I hope I am posting in the right thread.... If not, please excuse me!

You see.... I got a bit lost.

Where could one read more about the etymology of the names Faramir, and Boromir, please?

Oh, Tyr, very beautiful signature!

<Lang Mod edit: Thanks, Aldoriana, it's my name "Tyrhael" in a right-to-left horizontal variation of Rúmil's sarati, a precursor to Fëanor's tengwar!>

**Aelindis** · 07/Aug/2007, 04:39 AM

Regarding plausible meanings ofFaramir, cf. the roots SPAR- and MIR-,regarding Boromir,the roots BOR- and MIR- respectively, all listed in the Etymologies (LR:339-400), in alphabetical order.

**Lady d`Ecthelion** · 07/Aug/2007, 09:02 PM

Thank you, Aelindis!

**Arvellas** · 09/Aug/2007, 06:04 PM

I know that some of the information in the workbooks on the Council of Elrond is out of date, but what exactly is out of date about them? (so I know what to go by and what not to) I am thinking specifically of the Sindarin lessons, but if you can tell me more about the Quenya lessons, too, that would be great. (I was going to use those provided on Parma Tyelpelassiva, but whatever program was used to create the download files has some kind of grudge against my computer, and I cannot open them.)

**Tyrhael** · 09/Aug/2007, 06:53 PM

Regarding Thorsten's Pedin Edhellen, you have to download them and them 'unzip' them with a program like WinZip or JustZIPit in order for them to be accessible. As for Quetin i lambe eldaiva, it'll have to be updated because of a massive amount of important information found in the latest issue of Vinyar Tengwar. Though Thorsten is already working on updating the actual articles on his page.

As for CoE, I'll have a look through them — a few examples I can see right now off the top of my head are:

Sindarin:
01 — classifying 'Gandalf' as a Sindarin word, changing "in practically all cases" to "always" for stress of words with 2 syllables
02 — saying that A in a word is pluralized with E when 2 consonants follow and AI with one, whereas we actually have caint attested. The observed 'rule' (if there is one) looks more like AI when final but E when preceding R + consonant, or NG, if I remember correctly.
03 — caint as irregular, and natsai as pl. of naith (which isn't stated explicitly — it could actually be the primitive form that evolved into naith)
05 — lenition can happen in the second half of a compound, but assimilation and other things can as well (Thorsten's article deals with this). And adjectives "usually lenited" isn't exactly a rule — see another of Thorsten's articles.
09 — I don't think -ren after G turning to -GNEN is true. It should probably be mentioned that -eb comes from -ikwa and is related to "full", i.e. aglareb "glorious" is "full of glory", like Q. alcarinqua with nasal strengthening. And -wain for the superlative is absolute fiction — we now know (though people had been suggesting it years before that it was confirmed by later publications) that it's a lenited form of gwain "young".
11 — VT49 mentions that in Sind. we have si here, hi now.
12 — -ch is controversial, but I'm not getting into that here!
13 — definitely needs to mention the distinction between -s in intransitive verbs and -nt with transitive verbs for A-stems. Should look at Thorsten's article for past tense conjugation instead.
15 — I very strongly disagree with the theory that verbs ending in R have a pa.t. of -n. And sol- needs to be updated to hol-, but that's trivial.
16 — they start to use -g for sing. 2nd person and -ch for plural, and while this may be true, it contradicts all their earlier lessons!
17 — the matter of conjugating verbs like síla and aníra with -rn in pa.t. is up for debate as well (Salo or not Salo ...) — I think more people would keep the lengthened vowel and change it to E, i.e. aníre-, etc.
18 — who is to say aun and trenor are irregular? Vowel lengthening for pa.t. is hardly irregular, except for the circular reasoning that they've made the assumptions that the previously mentioned ways of conj. the pa.t. are 'regular/normal'. And agor should be mentioned — why isn't it? It's hardly irregular, but they would call it that, as it doesn't fit their pigeonholed system.

I'll try to get to a commentary on the Quenya lessons tomorrow.

Edit: or -nt with 17, i.e. anírant, sílant.

**Tyrhael** · 10/Aug/2007, 02:01 PM

Moving onto my opinion of CoE's Quenya course:
02 — some nouns ending in -e have plurals in -er as well.
04 — adjectives do not always agree in number with the noun they describe. And with ná "is", the word order should be described, as it's different than in English, which they don't seem to know.
06 — their description of how to form the past tense is highly simplified and doesn't take into account all attested examples and formations
08 — the perfect suffers the same treatment as the past tense, and the pronouns need to be updated
09 — should mention 'irregularities' such as itila
10 — should mention nasal formation of pa.p. as in envinyanta, pronouns need clarification and updating
11 — cainen for "ten" should be updated, as can cuile and anta
12 — makes up the rule about long vowel after -ui-, ignoring Eldaliéva, Oroméva, etc.
13 — it uses the past tense túle for tul- which (though it may be correct) contradicts their earlier lessons, and pronouns need to be updated (and chronology would be nice!) Var "or" should be updated as well.
14 — incorrectly writes that the final consonant is being omitted, whereas it's actually assimilation which is occurring. There's a difference in definition and in use. Pronouns can/should be updated. The rule about -e- for all except -i- for -nya is incorrect, as we have órenya attested.
15 — i can receive case suffixes. And ye should be added for a relative pronoun as well. And the use of ná "is" is off.
17 — demonstratives can be heavily updated, as can the numbers, and it should be mentioned that heru is heruion in attested sources, not heruron ... and that it's once pluralized as heruvi as well.
18 — pronouns can have clarification ... lá desperately needs clarification/updating
20 — "to be" can use updating, and while sa appears in the Merin sentence, we have i in VT49
22 — numbers need to be updated
23 — mai/ai for "if" needs updating, word order for ná is ignored again, and that does have a perfect tense ...
24 — the idea of lav- > arávie (and so forth) is completely without proof, and in fact there is proof against it.
26 — dual má is mát, not mau.

Now this of course is from a quick skimming of the Quenya workbook — there may be more problems. And I didn't address some of the stuff it left out, just errors that they made.

I suppose I could go farther and note what I think needs to be updated/clarified in Thorsten's and Helge's courses (though that would be a massive, time-consuming undertaking)...

**Arvellas** · 24/Aug/2007, 03:37 PM

Tyrhael—Thanks for that info.

All—Now, what with the Imladris Kingdom pages in a truly terrible state, they are being completely torn down and rewritten. This includes any information about the elven languages that was there. There are pages such as Finding a Fabulous Elvish Name and RP Phrases. Last I heard, there were people in this forum who disagreed with some of the information in the latter, and what we know about Sindarin has of course changed since those pages were made. What we want to do is rewrite these pages, possibly combining them into a sort of a one-stop Elvish for Dummies…but we’re gonna need a lot of help. If anybody wants to lend us a hand, please stop by our thread: Project: Kput.

**Tyrhael** · 24/Aug/2007, 07:08 PM

Hmm ... with the "Finding a Fabulous Elvish Name", the problem is that it only suggests lenition (soft mutation) for what would happen to elements in compounds, whereas actually the range of possibilities is far more complex — assimilation, nasal mutation, liquid, etc.

As for the "RP Phrases", there are some things I'd change, like plural gerunds, the use of -en for "my", o for "of" in some instances, and some of the titles (in addition to other things, some need vowel affection that isn't carried out), the use of im for "I" in every occasion, the way "I'm hot" and "I'm cold" are formed, the plural geil of "stars", a few Anglicisms, the use of "heart", the use of an with "listen to my laughter", etc. etc.

I didn't read them all, I just skimmed — I'll try to find some time to update those phrases (it's been on my to-do list for a time anyway). I'll swing by the Project Kput thread later.

**Fearghas** · 25/Aug/2007, 06:43 AM

Tyrhael: Just jumping in to throw a couple cents. I'm working together with Arvellas on the language page. Just wanted to say that it would be great to have a nice theory about the elven names. But on the other hand I think there should some sort of easy version. People who join the plaza and want a nice name may not all be interested in all the assimilations, mutations and such.
<DIV align=justify>Me personally, Iam interested and would love to see a nice long theory. But I think we should make a simple version for everyone, and another one for everyone who wants. One that goes deeper on the subject.
<DIV align=justify>
<DIV align=justify>Thanks in advance though for any help!

**Tyrhael** · 25/Aug/2007, 10:31 AM

Eluglín, I had a feeling you'd show up and say that, after reading the Project Kput thread. The only thing is, I don't know if the complexities of putting elements together in a compound can be simplified into a user-friendly version — Tolkien didn't give us specific rules; we can only infer from the examples he gave us. Thorsten Renk wrote an article on observations about compound formations here, but it's for 1930s Noldorin rather than Sindarin (though a lot of it would still hold true, I think — but not all). If there were 'rules', sometimes Tolkien would ignore or redefine them (or make explanations for exceptions) so that certain compounds could be justified — he liked making names based on how nice they sounded and looked, i.e. how they appealed to him, and then making justifications later.

My personal opinion would be to have people pick out name elements or meanings that they like and try to put them together on their own, then see what someone in the Language forum has to say about their formation (our response time is faster than it used to be, I daresay). But I don't know if that would go against the natural tendency of people to be independent and want to have formed it on their own.

**Aelindis** · 25/Aug/2007, 10:38 AM

Elugin:Iam in doubt as to whether there isa way of reducingthe "nice long theory"to a"simple version for everyone".
At all events,ifthe prospective readersare uninterested in "assimilations, mutations and such", no version whatsoever will be of any help to them.

Just my two cents...

**Fearghas** · 25/Aug/2007, 11:13 AM

Hm, I can't work on it now, leaving in a couple minutes to a drink. I'll think about what we can do, but all that you just makes sense. I didn't try, in any way, to offend the languages or the people who study them. I just want to throw in that people who are not interested in "assimilations, mutations and such"seem to be doing fine with the version we have... We just want to get the mistakes out of it. The ones who aren't interested wont care about it, but we'd like to see it updated.
<DIV align=justify>When a new person clicks to the elven name page in order to find a name and he runs into a wall of letters explaining how exactly compounds should be made, might soon enough loose interest. Or they would "scan" the text and find some good looking words or something similar.
<DIV align=justify>
<DIV align=justify>That's the effect that I have in mind. To give a nice elven name to everyone who wants one (perhapsnot fully correct, I'm not even sure if mine is correct, I just pasted two elven words together), and for the people who really want to do it right and have the interest to look into it, there would be the whole theory.
<DIV align=justify>
<DIV align=justify>Hope I'm bringing over the message the way I intend. I can see how it's hard to give a "false" short theory when you know so much about the languages, and want to do it right. Just think about the "false" short theory as a way to keep the Legolas_349's and Gala_driel877's away. (Yes I stole that from the elven name page

)
<DIV align=justify>
<DIV align=justify>Anyways, off to party me thinks...

**Jano Snowthorn** · 12/Sep/2007, 04:09 PM

Help! I'm hopeless with Sindarin and only ever use the crib sheets.

I want to know the plural of TIRN please which I know means a guardian or watcher. To put it into context I want to say Guardians of the Light which I think would come out as Calatirn? But that would come out as Guardian and I definitely need more than one!

**Tyrhael** · 12/Sep/2007, 06:31 PM

Well, since tirn has the i, its plural would be tirn as well, I think. As for "guardians of the light", combining calad and tirn would make caladirn; cal- and tirn could make caldirn or possibly calthirn as well. But pluralized, perhaps celedirn. Though the simple addition of tirn could cause the vowel affection as well without pluralization taking place, as in heledir ... so I daresay that despite attempts otherwise, the plurals in this case could be the same as the singular (celedirn for both, that is). Though you could attempt caladirn, pl. celedirn, I suppose.

Though one way of differentiating could be to put "the" in front, thus sg. i geledirn and pl. i cheledirn.

Thread: Language Help Desk 45

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